The Three Imperatives or only Two?

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EdZ

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Lag
Flat lead wrist at impact
straight plane line

The question I have, is that if you really have lag, if you really have lag pressure, why bother listing the flat lead wrist? Is there any condition in which you can have lag and lag pressure, but NOT have a flat lead wrist?

I think you could (potentially) skip the flat lead wrist as an imperative because if you sustain lag it will always result in a flat lead wrist.

I would think that a stable center would be more critical to list as an imperative. I'm not saying that a flat lead wrist isn't needed, only that it is a result of lag, a requirement of it, and isn't separate from it.

What do folks think about this?
 
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MizunoJoe

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You can lag the clubhead into the impact interval, and bend the left wrist through impact, which absolutely kills separation velocity and bends the straight plane line. In fact, I did this a couple of times yesterday by not keeping the left wrist moving/rolling through impact, which allowed the released clubhead to break the left wrist down.
 
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EdZ

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But isn't that not having lag, giving up lag too soon? In my mind, having lag is an all or nothing. You either keep it through separation, or you don't, and if you do, you will have a flat lead wrist (well, at least you will have the flail/levers working properly).
 
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drewitgolf

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Are you are trying to say that in a highly precise golf swing or hit,club-HEAD lag will control the club-Face and hinge action?
 
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EdZ

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I understand your point drewit, and to an extent, yes - given a proper wedge, and lag pressure, no need to 'do' anything for proper hinge action but maintain the lag pressure. It is a result.

A cause/effect prespective difference if you will.
 
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diggerdog

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The beauty of using a theology, if you will, to base your life around is the unshakeable certainty, once time and experience prove it out, you can put int its guiding principles. Even if the results are not up to expectations from time to time, grooving and having faith in the guiding principles will once again return you to the correct way. I don't think all 10 commandments are necessary, sometimes I think there are others left out, but I do believe trusting and following their direction will lead me to the short grass. Trying to re-write TGM, and I do it often, is a Pandora's box of chaos.
 
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MizunoJoe

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There are degrees of lag - actually one of my bent left wrist swings actually hit the green but went too high and consequentially short. You can leak a little or a lot. You can arrive at impact fully lagged and ready for compression, and lose it partially or totally through impact by slowing down the left wrist or totally quiting, which will cause a partial or total bend of the left wrist.
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Lag
Flat lead wrist at impact
straight plane line

The question I have, is that if you really have lag, if you really have lag pressure, why bother listing the flat lead wrist? Is there any condition in which you can have lag and lag pressure, but NOT have a flat lead wrist?

I think you could (potentially) skip the flat lead wrist as an imperative because if you sustain lag it will always result in a flat lead wrist.

I would think that a stable center would be more critical to list as an imperative. I'm not saying that a flat lead wrist isn't needed, only that it is a result of lag, a requirement of it, and isn't separate from it.

What do folks think about this?
Click to expand...

Ed,

A couple of thoughts:

1. Lag is not an imperative. The second of the Three Basic Imperatives is "A Clubhead Lag Pressure Point" and this deals with assigning Clubhead Lag to one (or more) of the four Pressure Points.

2. You can have lag with a serverely arched lead wrist condition. One may argue that arched is better than a bent lead wrist, but Mr. Kelley's imperative was a Flat Lead Wrist, not arched.
 
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EdZ

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Exactly, what I am saying is that it is lag, or rather lag pressure to be specific, that is the one single imperative - everything else falls into place when you maintain lag pressure points, because to really do so, everything else must be in place.

Once you have a solid understanding of lag pressure, in concept, and in feel, the golf swing becomes very simple to both execute, and understand. I know Homer stressed its importance, the secret of golf, but from a learning standpoint, I don't think it can be stressed enough.
 
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MizunoJoe

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rwh,

If you have Lag pressure in the hands, then you obviously have Lag. Conversely, if you have Lag, it will manifest itself at some point in the downswing as pressure in the hands.

Regarding your thought #2, arched is UNARGUABLY better than bent, and arguably better than flat.
 
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mb6606

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Mr. Kelley's imperative was a Flat Lead Wrist, not arched.

EDZ,
I am sure Homer had a reason for specifically writing "flat" and not "arched".
 
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njmp2

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quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

rwh,

If you have Lag pressure in the hands, then you obviously have Lag. Conversely, if you have Lag, it will manifest itself at some point in the downswing as pressure in the hands.

Regarding your thought #2, arched is UNARGUABLY better than bent, and arguably better than flat.
Click to expand...

Homer listed in order of importance. FLAT LEFT WRIST is NUMBER 1. Wonder why? It is so important it is mentioned in the preface: "And the number one alignment is the Flat Left Wrist (Law Of The Flail 2-K). Without it, more information means only more confusion." So from a learning point of view- its top of the list.

Lag simply means to follow. Clubhead follows the hands. Be careful with the word pressure, it may conjure the sense of squeezing tight to create lag. Pressure points, the three in the hands, sense lag not create lag actively.
And you can have lag with a broken down bent left wrist, as awkward as it would look. Or lag with a swaying head, so a Flat Left wrist must be taught.
Flat left wrist is more then an Imperative - It’s the most important one (2-0-B-1). Ponder if you like EdZ, maybe you need manufacture a drill. How about mopping a floor? Homer would give it to you.
 
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EdZ

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njmp2, why so hostile in nearly all of your posts?

I'm not saying a flat lead wrist isn't essential, only that it can be seen as a result rather than a cause.

mb - never posted anything about flat vs. arched? Flat is mechanically ideal, arched gives more margin for error, so there are indeed advantages to arched, as long as it is consistent arch.
 
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Ringer

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quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

There are degrees of lag - actually one of my bent left wrist swings actually hit the green but went too high and consequentially short. You can leak a little or a lot. You can arrive at impact fully lagged and ready for compression, and lose it partially or totally through impact by slowing down the left wrist or totally quiting, which will cause a partial or total bend of the left wrist.
Click to expand...
Truely in order for your left wrist to have been bent you did not have sufficient lag, or you released it to early.

BTW... did I hear you correctly that with a bent left wrist the ball still went toward your target it just went too high? Didn't someone spend an entire thread telling me that's not possible?
 
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SOS

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quote:Originally posted by njmp2

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

rwh,

If you have Lag pressure in the hands, then you obviously have Lag. Conversely, if you have Lag, it will manifest itself at some point in the downswing as pressure in the hands.

Regarding your thought #2, arched is UNARGUABLY better than bent, and arguably better than flat.
Click to expand...

Homer listed in order of importance. FLAT LEFT WRIST is NUMBER 1. Wonder why? It is so important it is mentioned in the preface: "And the number one alignment is the Flat Left Wrist (Law Of The Flail 2-K). Without it, more information means only more confusion." So from a learning point of view- its top of the list.

Lag simply means to follow. Clubhead follows the hands. Be careful with the word pressure, it may conjure the sense of squeezing tight to create lag. Pressure points, the three in the hands, sense lag not create lag actively.
Click to expand...

njmp2 ... Hall of Fame Post IMHO!
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
EDZ,
Lag pressure controls the clubhead. A flat left wrist controls the clubface. Homer said that he simply could not find a reliable way to control both the head and face with the right hand. The right hand feels/sustains power and acceleration while the left hand senses the clubface for control.

When you put the right hand sensing lag pressure together with the left hand sensing clubface control, you create your wedges. Proper wedges create total ball control...distance and accuracy.
 
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njmp2

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quote:Originally posted by SOS

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

rwh,

If you have Lag pressure in the hands, then you obviously have Lag. Conversely, if you have Lag, it will manifest itself at some point in the downswing as pressure in the hands.

Regarding your thought #2, arched is UNARGUABLY better than bent, and arguably better than flat.
Click to expand...

Homer listed in order of importance. FLAT LEFT WRIST is NUMBER 1. Wonder why? It is so important it is mentioned in the preface: "And the number one alignment is the Flat Left Wrist (Law Of The Flail 2-K). Without it, more information means only more confusion." So from a learning point of view- its top of the list.

Lag simply means to follow. Clubhead follows the hands. Be careful with the word pressure, it may conjure the sense of squeezing tight to create lag. Pressure points, the three in the hands, sense lag not create lag actively.
Click to expand...

njmp2 ... Hall of Fame Post IMHO!
Click to expand...

Shucks, taint nothin'

EDZ, Im teasing you. I know you love your drills. The mop drill (do my floor) instills lag as felt thru the hands.
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

rwh,

If you have Lag pressure in the hands, then you obviously have Lag. Conversely, if you have Lag, it will manifest itself at some point in the downswing as pressure in the hands.

Regarding your thought #2, arched is UNARGUABLY better than bent, and arguably better than flat.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree that lag will always manifest itself with either a flat or arched lead wrist; otherwise, if the lead wrist is bent, the clubhead is ahead of the hands. Homer must have known that; yet, he listed the Imperative as a "Flat" lead wrist, not "Flat or Arched" and Yoda has told us often that Homer always meant exactly what he wrote. So, I can only assume that Mr. Kelley believed a Flat lead wrist provided something more than just lag. Not sure what that "other" would be, though. Clubface alignment/loft?
 
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