The "U" Plane and The "D" Plane

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
I feel the need to educate the golf world on these two important concepts:

The "D" Plane

and...

The "U" Plane​

The "D" Plane is the concept defined by Physicist Dr. Theodore Jorgensen in his book "The Physics of Golf."

Simply explained, it is the plane (A flat surface that can tilt any which way, and extends infinitely in every direction) that the golf ball flies on until gravity and wind act on it.

This plane is formed by the ball at address, the precise place in space where the clubface points at impact, like where the "pointer" in a magnetic a lie angle tool points...

mag_lie_tool.jpg


...and the precise point in space where the path of the clubhead (or more exactly the sweetspot) is traveling at impact.

Think of this vector as the "top" of the D-Plane (even though it theoretically could be the bottom).

I call this vector the "TRUE CLUBFACE."

This "sweetspot path at impact vector" is harder to visualize.

First of all, consider that the path the sweetspot travels on the downswing is very large—both tall and wide—and the amount of time and distance that the club and ball are in contact with each other (the "impact interval") is very small.

Because this distance is such a small (one quarter of an inch to three quarters of an inch) piece of the downswing elliptical path, this path is a very nearly straight line.

This line is pointing in a precise direction, and this is the "bottom" of the D-Plane (even though it theoretically could be the top).

I call this vector the "TRUE PATH."

Easy enough, huh?

Well, not for many folks.

Why?

Because there is a "plane line," a "target line," a "stance line," goofy completely incorrect Gary Wiren-era "PGA Ball Flight Laws." and this little yellow book called "The Golfing Machine."

Among other things.

Let's take these one at a time....

Plane Line - The base line of a plane as it intersects with the ground (remember, a plane extends through the ground, the planet, and the galaxy).

An example would be the gutter on a roof.

Target Line - The straight line from the ball to the desired target.

Stance Line - The line formed by the feet of the golfer, either using the toes or the heels to "draw" the line, as it relates "somewhat" to the target line.

Gary Wiren/ PGA Ball Flight "laws" - Written after the PGA decided against using "The Golfing Machine" as the official PGA Teaching Manual, these misguided non-laws, suggested that the ball would always start on the 2D (on the ground representation of the) clubhead path (which they had NO WAY to measure), and curve to the 2D (on the ground on the ground representation of the) clubface (which they had NO WAY to measure either), if these two points pointed on different places. Other wise the ball went where they were both "pointing." Sort of.

The Golfing Machine Ball Flight "Rules" - Suggested that the plane line would always act as the "path" and the TRUE CLUBFACE would be—well—the true clubface.

Homer Kelly thought that the ball would start nearly on the vector of the TRUE CLUBFACE and curve toward the "path." This turned out to be quite correct.

One little problem...

The "path" part.​

And the little "Hinge Action" theory (but that's another story for another day).

The "path" will always be different than the "plane line" unless the TRUE PATH and the "plane line" are the exact same, which can only happen if contact is made dead level to the ground. Which doesn't happen very often.

So, how do you explain the divergence of the Plane Line and the True Path:

My little invention called:

The "U" Plane:

Here it is:
theUplane.gif


This shows how WHERE on the ellipse of the clubhead's sweetspot downswing "track" (which near the ball rest neatly on an inclined plane), determines the TRUE PATH.

This TRUE PATH—almost always the bottom of the D-Plane—can point very right or left of the plane line, and will also point "UP" in the air, or "DOWN" in the ground as well.

Because, you see, the TRUE PATH is 3D.

Now let's talk about it!
 

lia41985

New member
This illustration and explanation are so good (and understandable) it's a joke. We are so lucky to have you Brian. Thank you!
 
So the golfer needs to figure out how far left to shirt the stance in based on shaft lean and downward hit. How does one hit downward with forward lean and draw the ball??
 

joep

New
Whoa big fella. The u plane is for u guys that understand and the d plane is for guys that 'd'`ont like me that have a hard time understanding, sooo can someone break it down for me...joe
 
I spent some time with James Leitz last year and he used the same sort of example. He has had a trackman as long as anyone I know, so did you get this information from him or someone else with a trackman or from your own analysis.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The facts are the facts, ma'am.

The Physics of Golf, was written in 1994.

I bought my first copy in '95 or '96.

So I knew about the D-Plane way back when, but I couldn't really understand it. Just like lots of the good stuff in The Golfing Machine, the information just sits on the page if the author didn't do a good job of explaining it.

That's plays right into my "wheelhouse."

I can out write and out explain Homer Kelley and Theodore Jorgensen, by 2 a side, starting them 1 up, so to speak.

I spent many a year in golf and on this site talking about "ball flight." I wasn't quite right, but I knew folks that thought that somehow the ball might go straight with an 11° inside-out clubhead path, or anything even close, were either off their rockers, totally ignorant, or just selling a golfing "used car."

So, when TrackMan came to pass, it became evident to them that the D-Plane was right on the money, and thinking pros like James Leitz and myself were right on board.

I really don't know if James or I first got the grasp of the D-Plane, but I do know, that at the "semi-secret" seminar that James hosted a couple of years ago, that when I brought up the D-Plane, it was the first time that I ever heard anyone bring it up in such a setting, so much so that VJ Trollio and Mark Blackburn were really newly interested and curious and I passed them Mike Jacobs or Mike Finney's copy of The Physics of Golf for them to look at the D-Plane section, which we later Xeroxed for them.

If you remember correctly from being there yourself, two other TGM proponents of some ilk, both came up "on stage" to refute my 100% accurate assessment of the D-Plane and ball flight if a club swung WAY inside-out.

It was a day that will live in infamy.

One of these gentlemen did not go outside at lunch when James had us all come out to see Trackman at work.

The other wasn't right up front either.

So, to answer your "question," I say most of the information I presented was stuff i learned on my own, and tested and discussed with several TrackMan machine owners, including James Leitz, Chris Hamburger, and Kevin Shields, as well as with the folks from TrackMan at several seminars.

The FACTS of the D-Plane are VERY accurate, and TrackMan is the best device to measure the top and bottom of that plane.

Hopefully myself and James are not the only folks out there spreading the good word and TRUTH about ball-flight. But I know we are among the first.

Hope this the answer you were looking for.
 
The Physics of Golf, was written in 1994.

I bought my first copy in '95 or '96.

So I knew about the D-Plane way back when, but I couldn't really understand it. Just like lots of the good stuff in The Golfing Machine, the information just sits on the page if the author didn't do a good job of explaining it.

That's plays right into my "wheelhouse."

I can out write and out explain Homer Kelley and Theodore Jorgensen, by 2 a side, starting them 1 up, so to speak.

I spent many a year in golf and on this site talking about "ball flight." I wasn't quite right, but I knew folks that thought that somehow the ball might go straight with an 11° inside-out clubhead path, or anything even close, were either off their rockers, totally ignorant, or just selling a golfing "used car."

So, when TrackMan came to pass, it became evident to them that the D-Plane was right on the money, and thinking pros like James Leitz and myself were right on board.

I really don't know if James or I first got the grasp of the D-Plane, but I do know, that at the "semi-secret" seminar that James hosted a couple of years ago, that when I brought up the D-Plane, it was the first time that I ever heard anyone bring it up in such a setting, so much so that VJ Trollio and Mark Blackburn were really newly interested and curious and I passed them Mike Jacobs or Mike Finney's copy of The Physics of Golf for them to look at the D-Plane section, which we later Xeroxed for them.

If you remember correctly from being there yourself, two other TGM proponents of some ilk, both came up "on stage" to refute my 100% accurate assessment of the D-Plane and ball flight if a club swung WAY inside-out.

It was a day that will live in infamy.

One of these gentlemen did not go outside at lunch when James had us all come out to see Trackman at work.

The other wasn't right up front either.

So, to answer your "question," I say most of the information I presented was stuff i learned on my own, and tested and discussed with several TrackMan machine owners, including James Leitz, Chris Hamburger, and Kevin Shields, as well as with the folks from TrackMan at several seminars.

The FACTS of the D-Plane are VERY accurate, and TrackMan is the best device to measure the top and bottom of that plane.

Hopefully myself and James are not the only folks out there spreading the good word and TRUTH about ball-flight. But I know we are among the first.

Hope this the answer you were looking for.

Actually the seminar you speak of was quite entertaining but not the episode I recalled. I spent about a full day with James on a variety of topics, just he and I in his teaching bay with a bunch of rain coming down hitting golf balls and learning.

His explanation of the "d-plane" took a while to sink in and like all new concepts is still a work in progress.

I was not trying to say you took someone's information as your own, but I would love to see some collaborative information with people who work on trackman on a regular basis.

One of the people you mentioned actually has a trackman now.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually used the trackman with "iron byron" or the "pingman" to verify results. I would be curious if man and machine had similar results.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Just the facts, Ma'am.

Actually the seminar you speak of was quite entertaining but not the episode I recalled.

Well, I was sitting with Tom Bartlett, Michael Finney, and Mike Jacobs, and we have discussed what happened several times.

What do you remember differently?

I was not trying to say you took someone's information as your own, but I would love to see some collaborative information with people who work on trackman on a regular basis.

Collaboration in any field is usually a dicey proposition. Even in the music biz.

I wouldn't have any problem with it at all, though.

"Every man for himself and Gawd for us all." —Goerge "Jelly" Reno

It should be duly noted that TRACKMAN is measurement device and the D-PLANE is a mathematical concept. They can live a apart or together.

One of the people you mentioned actually has a trackman now.

I guess he's figured out by now that 11° inside-out won't produce any straight shots on this planet. :D

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually used the trackman with "iron byron" or the "pingman" to verify results. I would be curious if man and machine had similar results.

PING does it everyday.

They think so much of it, they bought 50 of them.
 
I was there, too......Brian's assessment of the Pinewood seminar was accurate....

and to answer your question.....Ping teams Trackman and Ping Man every day - about a thousand times a day......and Brian's description of the D plane was verified by Dr. Paul Wood - Ping's director of research....
 
Z

Zztop

Guest
I feel the need to educate the golf world on these two important concepts:

The "D" Plane

and...

The "U" Plane​

The "D" Plane is the concept defined by Physicist Dr. Theodore Jorgensen in his book "The Physics of Golf."

Simply explained, it is the plane (A flat surface that can tilt any which way, and extends infinitely in every direction) that the golf ball flies on until gravity and wind act on it.

This plane is formed by the ball at address, the precise place in space where the clubface points at impact, like where the "pointer" in a magnetic a lie angle tool points...

mag_lie_tool.jpg


...and the precise point in space where the path of the clubhead (or more exactly the sweetspot) is traveling at impact.

Think of this vector as the "top" of the D-Plane (even though it theoretically could be the bottom).

I call this vector the "TRUE CLUBFACE."

This "sweetspot path at impact vector" is harder to visualize.

First of all, consider that the path the sweetspot travels on the downswing is very large—both tall and wide—and the amount of time and distance that the club and ball are in contact with each other (the "impact interval") is very small.

Because this distance is such a small (one quarter of an inch to three quarters of an inch) piece of the downswing elliptical path, this path is a very nearly straight line.

This line is pointing in a precise direction, and this is the "bottom" of the D-Plane (even though it theoretically could be the top).

I call this vector the "TRUE PATH."

Easy enough, huh?

Well, not for many folks.

Why?

Because there is a "plane line," a "target line," a "stance line," goofy completely incorrect Gary Wiren-era "PGA Ball Flight Laws." and this little yellow book called "The Golfing Machine."

Among other things.

Let's take these one at a time....

Plane Line - The base line of a plane as it intersects with the ground (remember, a plane extends through the ground, the planet, and the galaxy).

An example would be the gutter on a roof.

Target Line - The straight line from the ball to the desired target.

Stance Line - The line formed by the feet of the golfer, either using the toes or the heels to "draw" the line, as it relates "somewhat" to the target line.

Gary Wiren/ PGA Ball Flight "laws" - Written after the PGA decided against using "The Golfing Machine" as the official PGA Teaching Manual, these misguided non-laws, suggested that the ball would always start on the 2D (on the ground representation of the) clubhead path (which they had NO WAY to measure), and curve to the 2D (on the ground on the ground representation of the) clubface (which they had NO WAY to measure either), if these two points pointed on different places. Other wise the ball went where they were both "pointing." Sort of.

The Golfing Machine Ball Flight "Rules" - Suggested that the plane line would always act as the "path" and the TRUE CLUBFACE would be—well—the true clubface.

Homer Kelly thought that the ball would start nearly on the vector of the TRUE CLUBFACE and curve toward the "path." This turned out to be quite correct.

One little problem...

The "path" part.​

And the little "Hinge Action" theory (but that's another story for another day).

The "path" will always be different than the "plane line" unless the TRUE PATH and the "plane line" are the exact same, which can only happen if contact is made dead level to the ground. Which doesn't happen very often.

So, how do you explain the divergence of the Plane Line and the True Path:

My little invention called:

The "U" Plane:

Here it is:
theUplane.gif


This shows how WHERE on the ellipse of the clubhead's sweetspot downswing "track" (which near the ball rest neatly on an inclined plane), determines the TRUE PATH.

This TRUE PATH—almost always the bottom of the D-Plane—can point very right or left of the plane line, and will also point "UP" in the air, or "DOWN" in the ground as well.

Because, you see, the TRUE PATH is 3D.

Now let's talk about it!

Can the shape of the u plane be altered to a more v plane shape, if not why? If so what happens? Or could the back part be more v shaped and the front u shaped , like steep coming down and shallow going out? Or is it always a u shaped plane?
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Can the shape of the u plane be altered to a more v plane shape, if not why? If so what happens? Or could the back part be more v shaped and the front u shaped , like steep coming down and shallow going out? Or is it always a u shaped plane?

The shape HAS TO BE a "flattened "U" rather than a "Sharp V."

Here's why.

If you had a V with, lets say, a 30° angle in the two downward straight lines forming the "V," you would have 30° downward strike if the ball were hit anywhere on the way down to the "point" or 30° up anywhere after that point.

In the golf swing, the club is coming down on rapidly changing angles, so that the late sections of the downward part of the "U" will produce less downward strikes than the earlier sections. And the same goes for the upward strikes past low point.
 
Z

Zztop

Guest
The shape HAS TO BE a "flattened "U" rather than a "Sharp V."

Here's why.

If you had a V with, lets say, a 30° angle in the two downward straight lines forming the "V," you would have 30° downward strike if the ball were hit anywhere on the way down to the "point" or 30° up anywhere after that point.

In the golf swing, the club is coming down on rapidly changing angles, so that the late sections of the downward part of the "U" will produce less downward strikes than the earlier sections. And the same goes for the upward strikes past low point.

Got it.Thanks :)
 
good stuff..

I like the "U" concept. That part I understand.

The red line is the base plane or target line.
The green is the true path?? Way out to right field per this ball position and low point?
The orange?? What the hell is that?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The U-Plane.

theUplane.gif


Both the green line (pointing outward and through the ground) and the orange line (pointing inward and in the air) are possible TRUE PATHs.

The club in this illustration is just a prop.
 

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
... orange line is representative of "hitting up" on the ball ... i.e. driver swing for a lot of people ... like Brian has said, you might want to aim right with the driver dependent on the amount you hit up

I didn't catch the fact that you have the lines also running "into the ground" and "above ground" alongside the direction away from the flag ... double meaning, eh ... you're good ... sneaky good
 
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westy

New
So how do we get to a rough set of ideals...?
Does ping disclose any ideals? Or trackman?
Hit up at a 300 yd driver five degrees, swing right of target 25yds, true face shut to true path 2 degrees?......minty draw....?
Fwy woods and hybrids hit at low point?,,,So with these a straight at the target true path and square face to that will go straight?
And, a Wedge hit 5 degrees downward needs what? A left set up to compensate for the true path actually being right of target? Aim left 7 yds with Face square to path?
Am I onto this here?
SW 6 degrees down.....causes 4-ish degrees true path to the right?
pw 5 degrees down
9ir 4 degrees down
8ir 3 degrees down
7ir 2 degrees down.......causes .75-ish degrees true path right of target?
6ir 2 degrees down
5ir 2 degreesdown
4ir 1 degree down
3ir 1 degree down
hybrid low point........square true path.....(to target)
fwy low point
driver 5 degrees up....needs a right aim to compensate for the true path going left because its going up.....
I think that i get that there are variables in conditions and humans.
I am just trying to establish a baseline in my hairy brown coconut.
 
Z

Zztop

Guest
So how do we get to a rough set of ideals...?
Does ping disclose any ideals? Or trackman?
Hit up at a 300 yd driver five degrees, swing right of target 25yds, true face shut to true path 2 degrees?......minty draw....?
Fwy woods and hybrids hit at low point?,,,So with these a straight at the target true path and square face to that will go straight?
And, a Wedge hit 5 degrees downward needs what? A left set up to compensate for the true path actually being right of target? Aim left 7 yds with Face square to path?
Am I onto this here?
SW 6 degrees down.....causes 4-ish degrees true path to the right?
pw 5 degrees down
9ir 4 degrees down
8ir 3 degrees down
7ir 2 degrees down.......causes .75-ish degrees true path right of target?
6ir 2 degrees down
5ir 2 degreesdown
4ir 1 degree down
3ir 1 degree down
hybrid low point........square true path.....(to target)
fwy low point
driver 5 degrees up....needs a right aim to compensate for the true path going left because its going up.....
I think that i get that there are variables in conditions and humans.
I am just trying to establish a baseline in my hairy brown coconut.

Good luck with trying to get all the above, when most golfer's main problems are club/ clubface control and solid contact to begin with. In the thread about getting putting lessons, they are saying 80% of golfer's including pro's can't aim a six foot putt properly, how is anyone going to do the above with all the different irons and all the variables, and how would you even know on the course if you did or didn't? 1 degree down with a 3 iron, take your trackman ,your going to need it.
 
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