Theory on elbow and turned shoulder plane

[Tom Bartlett]

Homer thought the turned shoulder plane was the best to swing on because the club shaft was "supported" by the right shoulder.

When asked why people (most tour players) swing on the elbow plane through impact he said because they do naturally.

I have a theory:
1. Most tour players are swingers.
2. Most tour players hit the ball on elbow plane.

Most hitters swing on turn shoulder plane.

It is my contention that the mass you are moving (the club) seeks an in line condition with it's force. It wants to line up with whatever is "swinging" it.

A hitter uses his shoulder and right arm, so the club wants to travel in the same plane as the force generator. Turned shoulder plane.

A swinger is using rotation of the body, generated somewhere around his center of gravity (usually just below the belly button). Elbow plane.

Oh well, I haven't heard of a better reason why people swing on either plane. And, "just because" didn't sound like a good enough explanation.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Makes sense Tom. It also is a possible reason why i've gone from "hitting" on the turned shoulder plane the first times seeing brian to now "swinging" on the elbow plane.

Maybe? Just maybe?

 

[Non-AuthorizedTGM]

Tom ....your post makes a lot of sense...especially when dealing with the delivery path of the hands and plane shifts....Hitters....Straight line ...zero shift...Turned Shoulder .....Of course swingers and hitters use of plane angle shifts are not mutually exclusive..but it makes sense to me.....your post...

The GNAT

 

[bray]

Tom,

I agree with Non. This was a well thought our post, and I've learned something from it today!!!

Thanks for the great post.

Sorting Through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray

 

[EdZ]

Physics is your friend - EdZ

 

[tongzilla]

Good point Tom.

This isn't in the book, but what about the absolute plane angle at Impact (i.e. forget about Turned Shoulder Plane or Elbow Plane)?

Do you think Swingers have a less steep plane angle at Impact than Hitters, or is there a weaker correlation when we look at it this way?

 

[c21heel]

Tom, thanks for the clear post.

It sure beats the standard "throw the marshmellow through a burning tire swing on an angle plane" analogy (okay, I made that one up) that is often used on this board to describe the swing, which often times leaves me scratching my head even harder.

I was educated in North Carolina; I need simple language.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Good point Tom.

This isn't in the book, but what about the absolute plane angle at Impact (i.e. forget about Turned Shoulder Plane or Elbow Plane)?

Do you think Swingers have a less steep plane angle at Impact than Hitters, or is there a weaker correlation when we look at it this way?

Leo,

First of all, sorry I didn't respond to you earlier I didn't see your question until just now. I hate it when people ignore questions, it wasn't intentional.

Now, what do you mean by absolute plane angle?

And yes, I believe swingers tend to have a shallower impact plane angle.

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

Homer thought the turned shoulder plane was the best to swing on because the club shaft was "supported" by the right shoulder.

When asked why people (most tour players) swing on the elbow plane through impact he said because they do naturally.

I have a theory:
1. Most tour players are swingers.
2. Most tour players hit the ball on elbow plane.

Most hitters swing on turn shoulder plane.

It is my contention that the mass you are moving (the club) seeks an in line condition with it's force. It wants to line up with whatever is "swinging" it.

A hitter uses his shoulder and right arm, so the club wants to travel in the same plane as the force generator. Turned shoulder plane.

A swinger is using rotation of the body, generated somewhere around his center of gravity (usually just below the belly button). Elbow plane.

Oh well, I haven't heard of a better reason why people swing on either plane. And, "just because" didn't sound like a good enough explanation.

Tom Bartlett~

I don't understand the reference to supporting the shaft. Did he say this in an audio? In the book he says, "When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the STROKE."

Thanks for your comment.

DRW

 

[Tom Bartlett]

DRW

The hands are always on plane with the shaft, right? So...if the shoulder is supporting the hands then it is supporting the shaft, right?

But, the point of the thread was WHY do people swing on the plane they swing on. And, it was my own observation and opinion.

Hope this is what you were looking for. In the future you can just use Tom.

 

[DDL]

I've had better success either keeping the shaft on the elbow plane ,or at least returning it there: in other words, a shallower plane than is dictated by the turned shoulder plane. I'm a swinger. All of this preaching about keeping the shaft on the turned shoulder plane bothered me because I couldn't do it successfully.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

DDL,

Who told you to stay on the turned shoulder plane???

The whole point of my thread was that swingers tend towards elbow plane and hitters turned shoulder and why.

I don't think either is better than the other and I don't care if you have a shift or not as long as you have a straight plane line.

Side note: Hey Tongzilla refer up a few posts for my response to you.

 

[DDL]

On the Yoda site, Yoda stated a "through the waist" plane of rotation, not the Hogan plane of glass atop the shoulder , that the hands should be on for swingers. It concerned a Homer master class which suggested to keep the right palm face up to the plane. The thread was a bit confusing , but I think you two are talking about the same thing?

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett


First of all, sorry I didn't respond to you earlier I didn't see your question until just now. I hate it when people ignore questions, it wasn't intentional.

Now, what do you mean by absolute plane angle?

And yes, I believe swingers tend to have a shallower impact plane angle.

Thanks for your answer Tom.

Absolute plane angle as in angle from ground to clubshaft...so 90 degrees would be super steep.

The reason for my original question was because you can have quite a steep elbow plane too.

Actually, because of the confusion of what actually defines an elbow plane, I find that a lot of AIs when they see a shift from a steeper plane to a shallower plane, automatically assumes that this shift must be from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane. Well, of course this doesn't have to be the case.

I think shallower plane angle might have something to do with elbow position with pitch basic stroke.

Has anyone noticed how Ernie Els' plane (top and impact) has become noticeably steeper over the years?

 

[Tom Bartlett]

You can get your elbow up onto a steeper plane, but HK defines it (Elbow Plane) as 10-6-A (by the way, this is just for you Leo since we try to stay away from quoting scripture) "Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle."

Then HK says 7-7 "Vaguely or incorrectly defined Planes and Variations must be eliminated."

But, then we go back to the three imperatives and as long as you can trace a straight plane line, who cares if you can't define it. I agree with you. I have seen very good players who aren't on THE Elbow Plane or THE Turned Shoulder Plane, but somewhere in between.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

You can get your elbow up onto a steeper plane, but HK defines it (Elbow Plane) as 10-6-A (by the way, this is just for you Leo since we try to stay away from quoting scripture) "Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle."

Then HK says 7-7 "Vaguely or incorrectly defined Planes and Variations must be eliminated."

But, then we go back to the three imperatives and as long as you can trace a straight plane line, who cares if you can't define it. I agree with you. I have seen very good players who aren't on THE Elbow Plane or THE Turned Shoulder Plane, but somewhere in between.

Thanks for quoting the book just for me Tom [:I].

I agree with Homer's definition of the Elbow Plane (of course...I have to...he made up the terms). But check out Summary in Chapter 10. Look at the descriptions in Component 6. Few things I find quite interesting. Frist, for Hands Only Plane, Homer describes it as "Impact Hand Location". Well, that could be any angle, couldn't it? Second, Homer just writes "Elbow" for Elbow Plane. I mean, he could've written "Elbow touches waist" or something but he didn't. Just a few extra words would add lots more clarity, even for a Summary.

By the way, do you think most 'off the rack' clubs are designed for the Elbow Plane or Turned Shoulder Plane (assuming normal height, etc.)?

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

You can get your elbow up onto a steeper plane, but HK defines it (Elbow Plane) as 10-6-A (by the way, this is just for you Leo since we try to stay away from quoting scripture) "Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle."

Then HK says 7-7 "Vaguely or incorrectly defined Planes and Variations must be eliminated."

But, then we go back to the three imperatives and as long as you can trace a straight plane line, who cares if you can't define it. I agree with you. I have seen very good players who aren't on THE Elbow Plane or THE Turned Shoulder Plane, but somewhere in between.

Thanks for quoting the book just for me Tom [:I].

I agree with Homer's definition of the Elbow Plane (of course...I have to...he made up the terms). But check out Summary in Chapter 10. Look at the descriptions in Component 6. Few things I find quite interesting. Frist, for Hands Only Plane, Homer describes it as "Impact Hand Location". Well, that could be any angle, couldn't it? Second, Homer just writes "Elbow" for Elbow Plane. I mean, he could've written "Elbow touches waist" or something but he didn't. Just a few extra words would add lots more clarity, even for a Summary.

By the way, do you think most 'off the rack' clubs are designed for the Elbow Plane or Turned Shoulder Plane (assuming normal height, etc.)?

Hands only-That would be HK covering all the bases by saying when the hands are the only thing on plane with the shaft at impact you are on Hands Only Plane.

As for Elbow Plane-I am confused. In his description in 10-6-A the first sentence says "where the right elbow touches the waist" Remember HK tried to not repeat himself in the book. He would explain things once and you have to find the answer (probably why so many people don't like it).

Homer said 7-6 "those aligned between the Elbow and Shoulder Planes have become the most widely accepted."
I think they tend toward the Elbow but, what does it matter just bend them to suit you.

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

DRW

The hands are always on plane with the shaft, right? So...if the shoulder is supporting the hands then it is supporting the shaft, right?

But, the point of the thread was WHY do people swing on the plane they swing on. And, it was my own observation and opinion.

Hope this is what you were looking for. In the future you can just use Tom.

Tom~

I just wanted to make sure that I understood the source of the reference to Mr. Kelley's teaching as there are audios and notes supplementing the book.

Why people swing on the plane they swing on would be an interesting list. I think a factor to be considered is what successful tour players do plus their skill in compensating. Staring on and returning to the address shaft plane or higher is common.

Relative to supporting the shaft, if that is significant,I would think the right forearm should be considered.

DRW

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:


Tom~

I just wanted to make sure that I understood the source of the reference to Mr. Kelley's teaching as there are audios and notes supplementing the book.

DRW

I have the audios and notes too. But, be careful as "the notes" that have circulated do not match</u> Homer's Hand Written notes that The Golfing Machine LLC has.

 

[tongzilla]

I was just reviewing a driver swing Mickelson made in this year's Masters, and I noticed he was pretty close if not on the turned shoulder plane at impact.