Tiger Woods - Initial Hand Path - Historical Analysis

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Lifter

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Looking at changes in the initial hand path from the top of the swing. The question is "why"?

2001 (approx): Diagonal

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mXWBhaHsAcw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2002: Diagonal

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sJwPJUnsX8Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2008: Vertical

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/W8N-N4FEoMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2010: Vertical

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1naZag2tDUM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2011: Diagonal (but just barely)

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wTTKmqmIWVw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2013: Diagonal

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/c24WQ0oKyuE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Well, first off only a couple of those videos are "down the line" enough to really look from a video standpoint of handpath.

If anything...it's what i've said for years; haney had him waaaay too inside out and generally the more in/out you are the more the hands drop vertically sooner to get the shaft more under/inside to swing out. Earlier in his career and now, he had a better path that allowed him to swing not so far too to the right; in general.

As Kevin has said, you don't know what shots he was trying to hit in these. In the one, i'd bet a dollar he was TRYING to hit a draw so that's going to be more in/out anyway.
 
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spktho

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I know I have discussed handpath especially in regards to my own swing and feeling the need to get more vertical or less out with the hands to start the downswing. As I learn more my swing, it appears that body sequencing affects the handpath a bunch. I'm sure there are other factors that affect the downswing handpath.
 
L

Lifter

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Well, first off only a couple of those videos are "down the line" enough to really look from a video standpoint of handpath.

If anything...it's what i've said for years; haney had him waaaay too inside out and generally the more in/out you are the more the hands drop vertically sooner to get the shaft more under/inside to swing out. Earlier in his career and now, he had a better path that allowed him to swing not so far too to the right; in general.

As Kevin has said, you don't know what shots he was trying to hit in these. In the one, i'd bet a dollar he was TRYING to hit a draw so that's going to be more in/out anyway.
Click to expand...

Hopefully I can find a nice DTL drive from 2006, when Tiger won two majors. I bet Tiger's hand path got more and more vertical the longer he was with Haney.
 
L

Lifter

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Kevin Shields said:
Across the line to laid off would be a good place to start
Click to expand...

Hogan was laid off. His hand path wasn't vertical. Sergio is laid off, and as Brian has shown, his hand path isn't even close to vertical.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="500" height="250" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Lifter said:
Hogan was laid off. His hand path wasn't vertical. Sergio is laid off, and as Brian has shown, his hand path isn't even close to vertical.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="500" height="250" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/20641989']);" href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/user1093431']);" href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '']);" href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
Click to expand...

And this has to do with Tiger....how??
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
You gotta get off this vertical thing. Nobody's hands go straight vertical very long, if they do, they sweep out to the ball. What is your point?
 
L

Lifter

New
Jim Kobylinski said:
Well, first off only a couple of those videos are "down the line" enough to really look from a video standpoint of handpath.

If anything...it's what i've said for years; haney had him waaaay too inside out and generally the more in/out you are the more the hands drop vertically sooner to get the shaft more under/inside to swing out. Earlier in his career and now, he had a better path that allowed him to swing not so far too to the right; in general.

As Kevin has said, you don't know what shots he was trying to hit in these. In the one, i'd bet a dollar he was TRYING to hit a draw so that's going to be more in/out anyway.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Not sure I grasp what you're saying. Intuitively, I would think that a flat backswing would feature a very diagonal hand path (like Kuchar and Sergio) and vice versa. But with Tiger, it's just the opposite. I wonder why that is?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Lifter, sergio and kuchar do not have hand paths that would be considered diagonal. They are very vertical, especially sergio, compared to other players. Tiger is a tough one to dicepher because he's changed his swings tally away from what's natural and plays a lot of different shots.
 
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ej20

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Some players require a true vertical handpath.In some cases such as Jim Furyk,the hands go backwards before coming straight down.This is because Jim has probably the highest hands at the top of the backswing in golf.If he didn't drop them straight down he would come massively over the top.

Lower hands at the top do not require a drop straight down.McIlroy does not have his hands as high as Furyk,Sabbatini or Dustin Johnson.If he drops his hands too vertically as he is prone to do,he comes too much from the inside and over draws.

Where your hands are at the top dictates how vertical or diagonal your handpath on the downswing should be.
 
L

Lifter

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Kevin Shields said:
Lifter, sergio and kuchar do not have hand paths that would be considered diagonal. They are very vertical, especially sergio, compared to other players. Tiger is a tough one to dicepher because he's changed his swings tally away from what's natural and plays a lot of different shots.
Click to expand...

Not sure how you define "diagonal." Brian showed that Sergio's hand path is diagonal with the light blue line below.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="500" height="250" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Pretty sure Kuchar's initial hand path is even more horizontal than that.

At any rate, you said they're relatively vertical compared to other players. I actually doubt that their initial hand paths are more vertical than those of most Tour players.
 
L

Lifter

New
ej20 said:
Some players require a true vertical handpath.In some cases such as Jim Furyk,the hands go backwards before coming straight down.This is because Jim has probably the highest hands at the top of the backswing in golf.If he didn't drop them straight down he would come massively over the top.

Lower hands at the top do not require a drop straight down.McIlroy does not have his hands as high as Furyk,Sabbatini or Dustin Johnson.If he drops his hands too vertically as he is prone to do,he comes too much from the inside and over draws.

Where your hands are at the top dictates how vertical or diagonal your handpath on the downswing should be.
Click to expand...

That's how I think of it too. Flat backswing typically needs diagonal hand path and vertical backswing typically needs (relatively) vertical hand path. But with Tiger, it's just the opposite, at least historically. I wonder why that is. Does Haney have a thing for dropping the hands down 90 degrees?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Lifter said:
Yep, and those left arms are pretty darn vertical at the top! How did Haney miss this?
Click to expand...

First off, the diagonal blue line is not very diagonal, it's extremely vertical.

If you went even further back in your historical analysis, you'd know the Tiger was always across the line with a little over the top move. All the high hands player ej20 just showed have the club hanging behind the hands, unlike Tiger ever did.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Also Lifter, the video of Garcia is a terrible camera angle and its on the 5th hole at Pebble, where he is most likely going to play a little cut.
 
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