birdie_man
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Sounds like a good one to me holeout.
tiger
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Sounds like a good one to me holeout.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
because no one else has said it, i will. The man got LUCKY! Does anyone even know what the statistical average is for making 10 feet putts are?
He got lucky and dropped a bunch of putts and won, that's the end of it. Just more to add to the Tiger Legend. (And just a FYI i'm a tiger fan)
He got lucky and dropped a bunch of putts and won, that's the end of it. Just more to add to the Tiger Legend. (And just a FYI i'm a tiger fan)
thefuture37
Banned
He made what 4 or 5 long putts in a row? At some point you have to realize that he was probably so keyed in on the speed and curvature of the greens that he was able to see the lines/speed better than usual. I'm not saying that he was favored to make any of them, but at that point he definitely had a better chance of making those putts than earlier in the round. If you say that the average make % of those putts was 10%, then the chances of making 4 in a row would be 0.01%. Highly unlikely based only on luck. He has made multiple bombs in a row before. He is obviously doing something to improve his chances.
Those stats apply to "the average PGA pro". Tiger needs his own set statistical data and averages.
Robot
shortgamer
New
Thats what it is, Tigers the luckiest golfer in the history of the game I love watching the guy when he does this stuff, it's just unbelievable.
I love watching the guy when he does this stuff, it's just unbelievable.
birdie_man
New
Those 3 statements.....to me, that really is all there is to it. (more or less)
"Props" to Tiger though.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Hmmm, I don't know, Jim. Can a guy possibly have 20 years of luck. Seems like every time he's "off" he makes the putts and when he hits it good, he destroys everybody. At some point we have to take luck out of the equation. If I did it, it would be luck.
The driver seems to be the only club he still gets under the sweetspot in the start down. Tough to save with his speed.
The driver seems to be the only club he still gets under the sweetspot in the start down. Tough to save with his speed.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Listen you guys are taking this too far, he's extremely talented and probably the greatest clutch putter of all time BUT that doesn't discount that luck was a factor in this win.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
I think that one could talk about luck, I guess.
But what purpose does that serve? How does that contribute to any discussion? Does it serve to attempt to diminish his achievements?
We could also talk about the non-luck reasons why he holes as many putts as he does, or why when the heat is on, he is successful when others are not, or at least are successful less often.
But what purpose does that serve? How does that contribute to any discussion? Does it serve to attempt to diminish his achievements?
We could also talk about the non-luck reasons why he holes as many putts as he does, or why when the heat is on, he is successful when others are not, or at least are successful less often.
jpvegas1
New
I agree with Lia, there's more than luck involved. Tiger's been doing this since his amateur days. I remember the monster putt he sank to get back to even in one of his US amateur wins, the chip on 16 at Augusta. If he only did it once or twice I would ring it up to luck, but he seems to be able to summon a shot whenever he needs one. Happening this often is more than luck. I don't know if its focus, mental toughness or what, but when the pressure is on Tiger seems to think and see things more clearly to come up with a shot when its needed.
I just read the book "The Match" about the match that took place between Nelson and Hogan vs Venturi and Ward. Hogan made a tough putt on 18 to win the match. Years later Harvie Ward went back to Cypress Point with some friends and they all tried to make Hogan's putt on 18, but none of them could. One of his friends asked him how Hogan was able to make the putt and Ward answered "because he's Ben Hogan and we're not." I watch Tiger come up with clutch shot after clutch shot and the only explanation I can come up with, is he is able to do it because he's Tiger Woods.
I just read the book "The Match" about the match that took place between Nelson and Hogan vs Venturi and Ward. Hogan made a tough putt on 18 to win the match. Years later Harvie Ward went back to Cypress Point with some friends and they all tried to make Hogan's putt on 18, but none of them could. One of his friends asked him how Hogan was able to make the putt and Ward answered "because he's Ben Hogan and we're not." I watch Tiger come up with clutch shot after clutch shot and the only explanation I can come up with, is he is able to do it because he's Tiger Woods.
Chris Sturgess
New member
Tiger is lucky, hahahahaha. Anything improbable happening is luck, hahaha.
David Alford
New
Talking about Hogan...I gave Hogan quite a lot of thought while watching the swings and games of the best players in the world the last few days.
My opinion is, at his best, Hogan and TW would be the two best guys on the range and on the course. After Tuesdays round I gave a lesson to the guy who gave me tickets, at the "Practice Range" in Tucson. Be sure to visit if you are visiting Tucson. Inside the clubhouse is a large framed photo of Hogan halfway into his downswing with shaft still vertical. Under the photo was the title: "As Good As It Gets..." How true.
Hogan's repeating swing, the "thud" of late release ball compression...I think his swing would cause even Tiger to look closely.
That said, I will agree TW's short game is phenomenal. I think he would beat Hogan more often than not except on Open courses, where I would give Hogan the advantage. Hogan was a good putter before he got old. How good he would have been today with better greenskeeping, better equipment, better ball, blah blah...who knows?
Let me add a few other observations...
Toms' swing and ballstriking - very good. I prefer a shorter backswing but it's no strain for him.
Appleby - was getting some heckling at the practice range by some morons who had too much to drink. To his credit he ignored them. After he was finished, I engaged him in some small talk about the rally race in Tasmania, didn't mention we had a mutual friend who Stuart knows very well. His ball striking - very good. Get's good yardage out of his club speed, it seemed.
Baady, Howell, Weir, and many others - Stack and Tilt seems to be the dominant swing model. Looks better in action than in Golf Digest freeze frame. All of these guys are excellent. Is this swing model superior to TW's or Hogan's? IMO, no. But w/o a doubt keeping the lead shoulder down and getting it forward and staying down before impact is something the avg. golfer doesn't do and should do.
I also feel "Stack and Tilt" doesn't sit off by itself as an exclusive pattern; it is a matter of degree that separates this from other patterns.
More on TW's swing vs. Hogan - as most here know, I don't like to get into particulars about Hogan. I'll just say they are not that far apart. Hogan was flatter, TW is more upright. Keep in mind Hogan was shorter, and TW is taller...there are also differences in grip, setup, takeaway, blah blah...I would love to demonstrate going from Hogan's swing to TWs in intermediate steps to show what the exact differences are in the two patterns, but that will have to wait due to health issues and lack of time. Think of them as close relatives...pattern wise, and power source wise. The FEELING of the two patterns is fairly close, as well.
Sergio - also a great swing, another closely related model to Hogan at least in the downswing. He seems to have putting concerns, was switching between a belly putter and a very short putter, trying to work things out.
Michelson (again) - as I posted earlier he has lost weight and looks much better than last yrs, seems sharp. Should have a good year. I think the shorter backswing is a very positive development.
Holmes - sorry, I just don't like bent arm swings. Powerful swing tho' and seems a nice guy. I think he ought to dress more classy per TW. It might help...
VJ - I'm biased against his loopy loosey swing. On the range, his ball striking by hard standards was so-so the day I watched him (for one hr.). He was using various swing aids to try to get his timing back. He is doing a bit of manipulation with the hands half way back. Hard to see at full speed; I videotaped him and would need to study the film. Half the guys I watched are cocking the club actively half way back.
I don't recommend active club cocking except on short pitches, etc. It adds variance in timing. Yet, here you have the best players in the world doing it. It will be hard to justify why someone should listen to me vs. guys who are making millions, huh?
All in all, however, the quality of swings, ball striking, and play is getting better and better. IMO, TW is top dog by a noticeable margin, but that margin would not make it impossible for him to beat Nelson's record at some point in his career if the second tier doesn't take it up another notch.
My opinion is, at his best, Hogan and TW would be the two best guys on the range and on the course. After Tuesdays round I gave a lesson to the guy who gave me tickets, at the "Practice Range" in Tucson. Be sure to visit if you are visiting Tucson. Inside the clubhouse is a large framed photo of Hogan halfway into his downswing with shaft still vertical. Under the photo was the title: "As Good As It Gets..." How true.
Hogan's repeating swing, the "thud" of late release ball compression...I think his swing would cause even Tiger to look closely.
That said, I will agree TW's short game is phenomenal. I think he would beat Hogan more often than not except on Open courses, where I would give Hogan the advantage. Hogan was a good putter before he got old. How good he would have been today with better greenskeeping, better equipment, better ball, blah blah...who knows?
Let me add a few other observations...
Toms' swing and ballstriking - very good. I prefer a shorter backswing but it's no strain for him.
Appleby - was getting some heckling at the practice range by some morons who had too much to drink. To his credit he ignored them. After he was finished, I engaged him in some small talk about the rally race in Tasmania, didn't mention we had a mutual friend who Stuart knows very well. His ball striking - very good. Get's good yardage out of his club speed, it seemed.
Baady, Howell, Weir, and many others - Stack and Tilt seems to be the dominant swing model. Looks better in action than in Golf Digest freeze frame. All of these guys are excellent. Is this swing model superior to TW's or Hogan's? IMO, no. But w/o a doubt keeping the lead shoulder down and getting it forward and staying down before impact is something the avg. golfer doesn't do and should do.
I also feel "Stack and Tilt" doesn't sit off by itself as an exclusive pattern; it is a matter of degree that separates this from other patterns.
More on TW's swing vs. Hogan - as most here know, I don't like to get into particulars about Hogan. I'll just say they are not that far apart. Hogan was flatter, TW is more upright. Keep in mind Hogan was shorter, and TW is taller...there are also differences in grip, setup, takeaway, blah blah...I would love to demonstrate going from Hogan's swing to TWs in intermediate steps to show what the exact differences are in the two patterns, but that will have to wait due to health issues and lack of time. Think of them as close relatives...pattern wise, and power source wise. The FEELING of the two patterns is fairly close, as well.
Sergio - also a great swing, another closely related model to Hogan at least in the downswing. He seems to have putting concerns, was switching between a belly putter and a very short putter, trying to work things out.
Michelson (again) - as I posted earlier he has lost weight and looks much better than last yrs, seems sharp. Should have a good year. I think the shorter backswing is a very positive development.
Holmes - sorry, I just don't like bent arm swings. Powerful swing tho' and seems a nice guy. I think he ought to dress more classy per TW. It might help...
VJ - I'm biased against his loopy loosey swing. On the range, his ball striking by hard standards was so-so the day I watched him (for one hr.). He was using various swing aids to try to get his timing back. He is doing a bit of manipulation with the hands half way back. Hard to see at full speed; I videotaped him and would need to study the film. Half the guys I watched are cocking the club actively half way back.
I don't recommend active club cocking except on short pitches, etc. It adds variance in timing. Yet, here you have the best players in the world doing it. It will be hard to justify why someone should listen to me vs. guys who are making millions, huh?
All in all, however, the quality of swings, ball striking, and play is getting better and better. IMO, TW is top dog by a noticeable margin, but that margin would not make it impossible for him to beat Nelson's record at some point in his career if the second tier doesn't take it up another notch.
David Alford
New
Let me add a short comment about "bent arm swings". Often it indicates a faulty backswing with the club laid off. People may blame their lack of flexibility. Often it's forced engagement of the left pectoral muscle created by an off plane swing that is causing the problem. For those who have had an injury that makes straightening of the lead arm impossible, these comments don't apply. And, if you're from Argentina, it's the "in thing".
David Alford
New
Correction, that's the "Practice Tee" in Tucson where Denny Alberts is director of instruction.
lia41985
New member
David--thanks for your insights. Did you by chance get a chance to check out Cabrera? Vijay seems to be having some trouble controlling that long, loose swing. I wonder if you saw Cabrera having similar troubles based on his own long, loose swing? God damn he's hitting it well on the course though--atleast for the 3 or 4 shots they actually show on TV, which of course, are drivers where he can get away with a little bit here or there.
birdie_man
New
Not at all does it diminish Damon. Obviously he does some things to increase his odds. This is probably the most important point to take from it all. But.....without getting too abstract.....I don't see how it's so out of line to say what he did to JB had some good fortune in it.
I can see how talking about "good fortune" may be seen as not being so flattering to him. But shoot.....even how often does Tiger do what he did to JB...? Gotta be pretty tall odds. I don't know what else I can say.
As for purpose........for me, I just feel I have to call it like I see it. And even moreso when it's to balance some of the Tiger-hooplah.....some of which I find to be too much. Esp. when you are not really a fan. And are a guy who doesn't like to resign or see resignation. (while others stumble over themselves to be the first to "give him the trophy" before he goes out to play)
And.......hopefully his PGA Tour competition sees it the way I do. They will increase their odds too.
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birdie_man
New
BTW guys.....with regards to luck......we are talking about his 4 hole streak of putts he made on JB. This is what Jim was talking about and what I was talking about.
I mean..........and people talk about it like he does this EVERY SINGLE TIME he has the chance to. He does not.
He does it more than most, sure. But I'll go no further than that.
I mean..........and people talk about it like he does this EVERY SINGLE TIME he has the chance to. He does not.
He does it more than most, sure. But I'll go no further than that.
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birdie_man
New
But Vijay is struggling and those guys are doing something different every month/new Golf Digest issue it seems.
You know more David.
Hope your health problems clear up.
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