Tiger's 2000 US Open Swing

[Jim1]

This message correlates with message #59 on the following page.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16139-tigers-current-swing-6.html (click the name "Tiger's Current Swing?")

I've been looking at you tube videos of Tiger's swings at various points in his career. Prior to Charles Barkley, Tiger almost always had a 3 inch head dip in his forward swing, whether with Harmon or with Haney. However, because of the flatter Haney swing, Tiger was more susceptible to Barkley syndrome than he would have been with the more upright Harmon swing.

But when I viewed the video of Tiger's 2000 US Open swing,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnDG7xeBlSw

I noticed that this swing was different than all the rest of his swings in that Tiger had almost a ZERO head dip throughout the 2000 US Open. This was by far the most STEADY Tiger swing out of all of the various Tiger swings. I don't think that it is a mere accident that THIS was the swing that produced the most dominating performance of Tiger's career.

Compare the swing of Louis Oosthuizen (pronounced WEST-high-zen, NOT OOST-hay-zen), which is one of the best swings in golf. The swing is so STEADY. His head barely moves at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64oc-Atdfvc&feature=related

Louis' swing is relatively flat. But he doesn't have Tiger's problem. A flat swing does not produce a head dip. It simply allows a head dip more so than an upright swing does, if dipping the head is a problem. If dipping the head is not a problem, then the player can successfully swing the club on any plane.

But if dipping the head is a problem, then swinging more uprightly with the hands ABOVE the head at the top of the back swing helps to prevent the head from dipping closer to the ball in the forward swing, which is why, as Rocco Mediate says, if Tiger gets the club (his hands) UP where it belongs, then we'll see Tiger's scores go down to where they belong.

 

[jenhaoyen]

ehh

most good players dip.

Fred couples for one

 

[dschultz6072]

hoo boy...I've got a list of people whose heads give the so-called "dip"...

Bobby Jones
Sam Snead
Ben Hogan
Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Nick Price
Nick Faldo
Anyone who can hit the ball worth a damn on TOUR

Tiger Woods

Do I need to go on?

I've already said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: Tiger's swing is not necessarily the reason he has won so many times.

 

[Jim1]

hoo boy...I've got a list of people whose heads give the so-called "dip"...

Bobby Jones
Sam Snead
Ben Hogan
Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Nick Price
Nick Faldo
Anyone who can hit the ball worth a damn on TOUR

Tiger Woods

Do I need to go on?

I've already said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: Tiger's swing is not necessarily the reason he has won so many times.

If you watch the Nicklaus video (click the link below),

Nicklaus Golf My Way - One Basic Swing - YouTube

and place the cursor on Nicklaus' head and leave it there, you'll discover a ZERO deviation in the vertical location of his head during the swing. The level of his head is the same throughout his swing. The steadiness of Nicklaus' head was a hallmark feature of his swing.

If you watch the Jones video (click the link below),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XeiFcLyGw

and place the cursor on Jones' head and leave it there, you'll likewise discover a ZERO deviation in the vertical location of his head during the swing. The level of his head likewise is the same throughout his swing. The steadiness of Jones' head likewise was a hallmark feature of his swing.

The same is true of Snead in the video linked below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Gu7n7Vnm0

The same is true of Hogan in the video linked below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

The best golf comes from players who do NOT move their heads all over the place (vertically). Horizontal steadiness is less important than vertical steadiness until impact. Once the ball has been struck and is on its way, it's OK (and easier on the back) to raise the head, although neither Nicklaus nor Jones does so in their videos, and neither Snead nor Hogan does so very much in their videos.

In the video of Palmer below,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tWrTCRBOQw

there is a ZERO change in the vertical level of the head until after impact, but lots of horizontal movement.

In the video of Faldo below,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OYjx7oMv5o&feature=related

again there is ZERO change in the vertical level of the head until after impact, but some horizontal movement.

If you look at the video below comparing Gulbis and Creamer, who are known for a big dip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jviToMF5kYk

and if you again place the cursor on their heads and leave it there, you'll see that there is a lot of horizontal movement before impact, but not very much vertical movement until impact. Once the ball is on its way, their heads go WAY down in an effort to keep the club face square to the target line as long as possible past impact in order to hit the ball straighter.

ALL of those great golfers above maintain a VERTICALLY LEVEL HEAD (NO DIPPING) throughout the swing until after impact.

Even when he was with Harmon, Tiger dipped more (about 3 inches) than any of those players above. But in his FINEST performance (THE 2000 US OPEN), even Tiger DID NOT DIP.

None of those great golfers above dipped. The more Tiger dips, the worse he plays. The less Tiger dips, the better he plays.

Conclusion: Dipping is BAD. Don't do it. And if you're doing it, figure out a way to stop doing it. Keeping the hands ABOVE the head at the top of the back swing helps to prevent dipping. That is what Tiger needs to do. As Rocco Mediate said, if Tiger gets that club UP where it belongs, he'll be OK.

 

[Lifter]

Jim1,

You really really really need to stop listening to Chamblee, Nobilo and Lye with all this head dip nonsense. They don't have any idea what they're talking about.

 

[Lifter]

I'd also like to hear from Brian or anyone else who teaches for a living on this. When you've worked with students who constantly hit fat shots, have you ever found excessive head dip to be the root of the problem? At all?

 

[tbarbertab]

What a beautiful motion he had in 2000. If Tiger would have just stuck with this swing, he could have avoided a lot of heartache. But, like pointed out earlier, his short game and mental toughness is what won him all those tournaments.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Do a search on youtube for Chamblee swing and their is a video up there comparing Chamblee and Miller and both of their heads dip in their golf swing

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Johnny Miller, Lee Trevino, and Ben Hogan, three of the best iron players of all time, massively dipped their heads during the swing.

 

[Jim1]

Do a search on youtube for Chamblee swing and their is a video up there comparing Chamblee and Miller and both of their heads dip in their golf swing

At the 1:30 to 3:00 segment in the following video,

Tiger Woods, Ben Hogan, Johnny Miller, Brandel Chamblee - Golf Swing Analysis - YouTube

Chamblee dips about 3 inches in his forward swing, and Miller APPEARS to dip even more than that, even though he does not actually do so.

If you place your cursor next to Miller's white collar (contrasted with his red sweater) and leave it there, you'll see that the base of Miller's neck is not much closer to the ball at impact than it is at address. Miller bends his neck forward (thus lowering his head) in the forward swing, but the base of his neck (and thus his torso) is not much closer to the ball at impact than it is at address. In contrast, when Tiger does the Charles Barkley thing, his entire head, neck and torso are much closer to the ball at impact than they are at address.

At the 7:00 to 7:20 segment in the following video,

Johnny Miller Golf Swing Fundamentals - YouTube

the vertical level of Miller's head is fairly constant (place the cursor on his head and leave it there) until impact.

The narrator of the Chamblee-Miller-comparison video says that Chamblee and Miller do not know what they are talking about when they say that whenever Tiger does the Charles Barkley thing, it is a BAD THING.

The narrator's reasoning is that Tiger won 14 majors, and therefore whenever Tiger does the Charles Barkley thing, it must be a GOOD THING. That is his reasoning.

The narrator ignores the fact that when Tiger does NOT DIP, he wins by 15 strokes at Pebble Beach in 2000, and that when Tiger does the Charles Barkley thing, he finishes almost dead least at Firestone in 2010.

Yes, the Charles Barkley thing, which has been plaguing Tiger to one degree or another for two years now, really is a BAD THING.

 

[Jim1]

Johnny Miller, Lee Trevino, and Ben Hogan, three of the best iron players of all time, massively dipped their heads during the swing.

Miller did not, as shown in message #10, and Hogan did not, as shown in message #4.

Trevino did. But even Trevino admits that his swing is a series of compensations, and that no one should try to copy it.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Hogan's head dipped down, as well as all best ballstrikers (although noone of them dipped very seriously). It is a natural reaction for a biped's correct utilizing of the ground forces.

Cheers

 

[magicmarker]

What is the point if Hogan's head did a major dip or not. Tiger wanting his swing to look like Hogan's is a part of him getting sidetracked to begin with. No, Tiger's swing is NOT the reason he won so many tournaments, but it was a factor in the tournaments he was lapping the field by about a dozen shots.

 

[Jim1]

Hogan's head dipped down, as well as all best ballstrikers (although noone of them dipped very seriously). It is a natural reaction for a biped's correct utilizing of the ground forces.

Cheers

No, Hogan did not dip in the forward swing, as the following video (time frame 1:05 to 1:12) shows. Put the cursor on his head and leave it there. Hogan's head does not move away from the cursor until after impact.

Ben Hogan Golf Swing - YouTube

Here's another view. Same thing. No dip.

This video shows the fact that he does not dip best of all.

Ben Hogan Face On Grid - YouTube

This video shows it (the fact that he does not dip) best of all.

Ben Hogan Face On Grid - YouTube

Ben Hogan Slow Motion Swing - YouTube

Another view. Same thing. No dip.

Ben Hogan interesting hand action slow motion and frame-by-frame - YouTube

This video shows the fact that Hogan did not dip best of all.

Ben Hogan Face On Grid - YouTube

 

[carland]

No, Hogan did not dip in the forward swing

I don't know if head dip matters or not, but this guy seems to show that Hogan did dip his head at about 2:10 on the video below.

Ben Hogan Golf Swing Analysis - YouTube

 

[Dariusz J.]

No, Hogan did not dip in the forward swing, as the following video (time frame 1:05 to 1:12) shows. Put the cursor on his head and leave it there. Hogan's head does not move away from the cursor until after impact.

Ben Hogan Golf Swing - YouTube

No, it surely dips just after transition since it simply must dip for the reason I explained before. Use programs such as e.g. V1 and draw a line. Do it even better with a DTL motion.

Cheers

 

[Jim1]

I don't know if head dip matters or not, but this guy seems to show that Hogan did dip his head at about 2:10 on the video below.

Ben Hogan Golf Swing Analysis - YouTube

In that video analysis, the narrator found an iron shot (on the left) in which Hogan dips a little bit.

In the driver shot (on the right), Hogan's head barely lowers from its original position. I don't know of anyone (except the narrator) who would refer to that small movement as a dip.

That same narrator will say that what Hogan does (his head barely moving from its original position) justifies what Tiger has been doing for the last two years (his head sometimes dipping as much 9 inches), which is nonsense.

 

[Jim1]

The reason that Tiger dips is that he is trying to produce power. But dipping does not produce power. It actually drains power.

Look at the long drive competitors in the following video. They don't dip at all.

PART 9 - 2009 RE/MAX World Long Drive Championship ESPN - YouTube

No doubt, based on what Dariusz J. has defined as dipping, Dariusz J. will probably say that they are dipping.

Whatever it is that they are doing, it is certainly NOT what Tiger has been doing these last two years.

 

[Dariusz J.]

No doubt, based on what Dariusz J. has defined as dipping, Dariusz J. will probably say that they are dipping.

Whatever it is that they are doing, it is certainly NOT what Tiger has been doing these last two years.

You know, English is not my native language, therefore, I just presumed that the word "dipping" is not anything different than changing its position in a vertical plane or lowering. You stated before that Hogan's head did not do it at all which is simply not true.
Lastly, noone here argues against another truth that Woods dips or lowers his head more than e.g. Hogan did. I even sort of said that noone of best ballstrikers dipped very seriously. Their head motion down is just a natural reaction for utilizing vertically oriented ground forces after transition - similar to a human that prepares to a jump. Call it "head lowering" while Woods "dips" and I can agree while learning new nuances in meanings of English words.

Cheers

 

[Lifter]

I see plenty of net head lowering here by Jamie Sadlowski:

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