Tiger's 2000 US Open Swing
- Thread starter Jim1
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No. In fact most Ams are lifting into impact due to throw away, too steep or lack or rotation though the ball. Golfers have an uncanny ability to find the ball if they play enough. Most over the top swings are bailing out not squatting into the ball. To Kevins point some do dive but that is usually a reaction to lifting in the backswing and theyre trying to find it by going down. Sometimes rhey dive more than the lifted and crash.
earthshine2k
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I agree the head dip is an issue. But the question is, HOW is the head dipping and WHEN does the head dip. If the 'lowering' of the head happens during the down swing, and is a result of the powerful 'squatting' action we see in the best players, then, yes, it shouldn't be a show stopper. Even then, I don't think the 'dip' should be very much. However, if the player begins to dip his head as soon as he moves the club away from the ball, or the dip is a result of a significant change in spine angle, then I think you run into all kinds of trouble. If you then have to 'stand up' through impact, you're toast. After that, if the head is also moving towards the target line, then forget it. All things being equal, I agree a 'steady' head, as Nicklaus described, is better medicine.
I am currently working on a swing change and I have therefore practiced a lot without a ball. When I do the purest motion back and through - and without aiming for a specific part of the turf, the club head often returns to impact 3-4 inches to the inside of the address position. I still haven't made up my mind about how to best handle it.
When you return to impact with the shoulder girdle more open than it was at address, the left shoulder will be further away from the ball for most of us. If all the other usual suspects stays the same, you will hit it thin or at the toe. But before you know it you will start to release early to reach far enough out. I've had my fair share of those lately and the result is the ultimate snap hook. Some times it just dives straight into the water in front of the tee. I guess it's the price for having practiced without a ball.
Lowering the head in the down swing is IMO one way to make ends meet here. Hogan returns to impact with almost identical shaft angle as he had at address. Seems to me like he has to lower his head to do that.
Another way to make ends meet is to steepen the shaft angle at impact compared to address (or actually to start with hands extra low)
Or of course, a combination of the two.
If there's a perfect solution to this dilemma I'm all ears, because I struggle with finding a good address and takeaway that returns the sweet spot to the back of the ball without need for compensation.
When you return to impact with the shoulder girdle more open than it was at address, the left shoulder will be further away from the ball for most of us. If all the other usual suspects stays the same, you will hit it thin or at the toe. But before you know it you will start to release early to reach far enough out. I've had my fair share of those lately and the result is the ultimate snap hook. Some times it just dives straight into the water in front of the tee. I guess it's the price for having practiced without a ball.
Lowering the head in the down swing is IMO one way to make ends meet here. Hogan returns to impact with almost identical shaft angle as he had at address. Seems to me like he has to lower his head to do that.
Another way to make ends meet is to steepen the shaft angle at impact compared to address (or actually to start with hands extra low)
Or of course, a combination of the two.
If there's a perfect solution to this dilemma I'm all ears, because I struggle with finding a good address and takeaway that returns the sweet spot to the back of the ball without need for compensation.
tablecloth
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Tiger is the best player for golf..i wonder what happens to him now? is he still playing? never heard of him anymore, or am I just behind
jenhaoyen
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Tiger is the best player for golf..i wonder what happens to him now? is he still playing? never heard of him anymore, or am I just behind
1. changed his swing
2. again
3. again
4. worry too much about his swing, didn't focus where he was at best (the short game)
5. .....
6. .......
7. don't know where he's going with this
mjstrong
New
Agreed.
However, there are probably more differences from Tiger 2000 to Tiger 2011 than all of us put together could list. And, I'm not just talking swing. In my opinion, at that level, the golf swing has much less to do with a player's ability to score and win tournaments than we give it credit for. He's changed his entire swing twice since then, has diminished short game skills, and who knows what's changed inside the man's head.
Now, this thread is about the swing itself, so if we are only trying to analyze its performance, why not compare some relevant performance stats (calling Richie3Jack?) of his 2011 (though abbreviated) season to those of his Butch and Haney heydays? I suspect that we'll still see a much poorer performance in terms of ball striking (assumption: swing quality = shot quality) this year, but at least the data would serve as a better measuring stick than tournaments won, world ranking, or any other measure that encompasses all aspects of the game.
birly-shirly
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Personal opinion here - but I think you take a huge risk in working on a swing change without a ball.
If you have a trusted instructor who knows your swing presribing the changes, then you might like the odds. If you're VERY sure of what you're doing, then by all means go for it. But I'd be very nervous of trying to make changes without either ballflight or a second pair of qualified eyes giving you feedback on the changes.
My point has been that Tiger's head dip dramatically increased after March 2009, and that this resulted in a dramatic increase in his scores. Ever since then, on the days in which his head dip has been bad, his scores have been bad, and on the days in which his head dip has not been so bad, his scores have not been so bad.
Before March in 2009, even though his swing was no longer a Harmon swing, he could nevertheless score, because he had not yet lost control of his swing (with an exaggerated dip).
I used 2000 as a point of comparison because that was the year in which the steadiness of Tiger's head was the best, and not surprisingly, that also happened to be his best year with regard to results.
But the dramatic increase in Tiger's scores did not begin to occur until after March in 2009, when Tiger began to experience a dramatic increase in the amount that he dipped his head in the forward swing.
faux_maestro
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The only problem I have with your premise is it feels a little over simplified. Ok, he drops his head. Why does he do it? I've found a lot of "obvious" problems in the golf swing are actually the reaction to something else. This may not be the case here but it happens so often I would bet money on the head drop being an effect of another problem and not the main problem.
When Foley (or his assistant) was holding the grip end of a golf club against Tiger's head while Tiger hit golf balls, he didn't seem to be looking for an underlying cause of Tiger's head dip. Foley's logic appeared to be direct. Why is Tiger dipping his head? Because he's dipping his head. And how can Tiger stop dipping his head. By not dipping his head. Foley's approach didn't seem to be any more complicated than that.
Sometimes people do wrong things, not because of something else, but simply because they've developed bad habits, and the only way to stop doing it is to stop doing it. Sometimes things really are that simple.
A golfer might dip in the forward swing because he has the false idea that diving into the ball will produce more power. But all one has to do in order to see that the diving for power idea is false is to watch the long drive competitors. They don't dive. They stay up in order to hit it farther.
However, even though I am not a golf instructor, my personal experience is that when my hands are higher at the top of the back swing, I am less likely to dip in the forward swing then when my hands are lower at the top of the back swing. And that is what I've noticed in Tiger's swing as well. Therefore, I think that Rocco Mediate was correct when he said that getting the club back up where it belongs will solve Tiger's problems.
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faux_maestro
New
He was also trying to keep Tiger from moving his head off the ball. Which changes his pivot. Which changes his hand path (both back and down). It wasn't just to keep his head from dipping. Maybe one of the Manzella academy can weigh in on this. Is this a cause or effect of something else?
Look at this video linked below. At about the 2 minute mark, we see Tiger with his hands up high at the top of the back swing (an older swing), and his head dip is almost zero in the forward swing. When the hands are higher at the top of the back swing, there really is less tendency to dip the head in the forward swing than there is when the hands are lower.
Bob Toski Analysis of Tiger Woods' Golf Swing. - YouTube
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faux_maestro
New
I've seen this video before. Is it really all about high hands at the top? What is the reason?
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