Brian Manzella
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Tiger's TWO Planes
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swing-geek
New
WOW!
Great work, Brian - I can see the "elbow plane" so clearly in the photo on the right that you made!!! Ty ty ty.
Great work, Brian - I can see the "elbow plane" so clearly in the photo on the right that you made!!! Ty ty ty.
birdie_man
New
Yup....there's no way he's getting that club on the plane of his shoulders at the top.
Some ppl might think of it as picky (even though it's easy enough to understand that it really doesn't need to be simplified, IMO)....but really it's just "right"....I mean..."correct."
Nice pic Brian.
Some ppl might think of it as picky (even though it's easy enough to understand that it really doesn't need to be simplified, IMO)....but really it's just "right"....I mean..."correct."
Nice pic Brian.
tongzilla
New
Tiger Double Shifts with his Driver and longer clubs from the Elbow Plane to the Turned Shoulder Plane and back onto the Elbow Plane, despite what anyone may speculate. Double Shift is often subconsiously employed, especially strokes with more Pivot participation.
His Right Shoulder from drives Down Plane (forwards, downwards and outwards) into Impact, remaining on the Turned Shoulder Plane. Meanwhile, his hands and club drop onto the Elbow Plane.
Look how perfectly On Plane his Right Forearm is at Impact, made possible with a Level Right Wrist. This very desirable position gives maximum support for the Clubshaft. Because of the Accumulator #3 angle, the Left Arm cannot be On Plane when his Right Forearm is On Plane.
His Right Shoulder from drives Down Plane (forwards, downwards and outwards) into Impact, remaining on the Turned Shoulder Plane. Meanwhile, his hands and club drop onto the Elbow Plane.
Look how perfectly On Plane his Right Forearm is at Impact, made possible with a Level Right Wrist. This very desirable position gives maximum support for the Clubshaft. Because of the Accumulator #3 angle, the Left Arm cannot be On Plane when his Right Forearm is On Plane.
Two sentences . . . very powerful sentences . . .
Get this water in your mellon and you shall have the key to the land of milk and honey.
Tong,
What do you consider the advantages/disadvantages of the Double Shift . . . or any shift for that matter. Mr. K said shifts are "hazardous" . . . I think that point could be argued effectively both ways.
LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT WRIST WRIST WRIST WRIST
birdie_man
New
I think there have been very good players that do either. I'd say what you do best and most naturally is ideal (for you). Experiment and see what you like.
Although I think there have been more GREAT players that have a shallower Down Stroke Plane.
Tiger ("new"), Hogan, Snead all Double Shift.....the "old" Tiger was a Reverse Shift BTW- still a shallower Down Stroke Plane tho (TSP Back Stroke, Elbow Plane Down Stroke).
.....
Mickelson is one very good player who plays with a STEEPER downstroke plane (Single Shift).....
Still....w/e you do best prolly.
Moe Norman: "Everyone has their own blueprint."
....
Although, Moe was a Double Shifter too Tim.
tongzilla
New
The Turned Shoulder Plane (TSP) is steeper than the 'address shaft plane', because Tiger sets up on the Elbow Plane at address, which is necessarily less steep than the TSP.
The lesson we should learn here about Tiger's Impact position (or any other great player's) is that it doesn't matter whether you're on the TSP or Elbow Plane at Impact, as long as your Right Forearm is On Plane also.
tongzilla
New
I look at this question another way: What are the consequences of a player who has a natural Double Shift converting to a Zero/Single Shifter? Not good -- unless you completely change your swing, and it will feel radically different. I know Brian prides himself in being able to demonstrate almost any variation, but demonstrating Plane Shifts when actually hitting a shot is one of the more difficult things.
Although Homer never mentions it, you will find players with a shorter backstroke (hands stopping at Right Shoulder level at the Top or even at the Side, like Moe Norman) generally have a tendency towards Single Shift or Zero Shift strokes. Most players on the PGA Tour don't have short looking backstroke (not with driver anyway!), hence they Double Shift. Most are Swingers and therefore tend to have a longer backstroke.
Tiger Single Shifts when Hitting his 60 yard pitch shots.
Also remember guys, just because the Impact Plane Angle is steeper than the address angle doesn't mean you're on the TSP at Impact. A lot of players start on the Hands Only Plane (or somewhere between Hands Only and Elbow Plane).
[/quote]
The Turned Shoulder Plane (TSP) is steeper than the 'address shaft plane', because Tiger sets up on the Elbow Plane at address, which is necessarily less steep than the TSP.
The lesson we should learn here about Tiger's Impact position (or any other great player's) is that it doesn't matter whether you're on the TSP or Elbow Plane at Impact, as long as your Right Forearm is On Plane also.
[/quote]
OK on the forearm alignment.
If he is on the elbow plane at address, isn't he coming into impact on a steeper plane. What is it about the elbow plane address position that is beneficial? From TGM perspective, why the compensation? OTOH, considering spine tilt, can impact be sufficently analyzed with the view presented? Do you feel Mr. K provides a good release/impact position photo with a similar view?
There has been some discussion about why O'Grady advocates low hands and I need to revisit that.
DRW
The Turned Shoulder Plane (TSP) is steeper than the 'address shaft plane', because Tiger sets up on the Elbow Plane at address, which is necessarily less steep than the TSP.
The lesson we should learn here about Tiger's Impact position (or any other great player's) is that it doesn't matter whether you're on the TSP or Elbow Plane at Impact, as long as your Right Forearm is On Plane also.
[/quote]
OK on the forearm alignment.
If he is on the elbow plane at address, isn't he coming into impact on a steeper plane. What is it about the elbow plane address position that is beneficial? From TGM perspective, why the compensation? OTOH, considering spine tilt, can impact be sufficently analyzed with the view presented? Do you feel Mr. K provides a good release/impact position photo with a similar view?
There has been some discussion about why O'Grady advocates low hands and I need to revisit that.
DRW
swing-geek
New
If you look at any tour player, their hands always end up higher than their address shaft plane (or elbow plane) at the top of their swing (turned shoulder plane). Also, (with only prehaps a couple of exceptions) their hands are above the "plane" of shoulders.
Having someone stand behind you and attempt to get you to swing on the address shaft plane is "ridicu-laus", not "Nick-laus". [8D]
Having someone stand behind you and attempt to get you to swing on the address shaft plane is "ridicu-laus", not "Nick-laus". [8D]
tong, what about when you have someone setting up for a zero shift on the TSP, with the right forearm and elbow on the TSP at Address? I think thats what I've read as the "ideal", particularly for a Hitter using Fix as address. That can be done, right? In that case, wouldn't then the elbow plane = the Turned Shoulder Plane?
swing-geek
New
No Tongzilla, I did mean the hands are above the "plane" of shoulders, as shown in the left picture of Tiger in the initial post of this thread. Not sure, but some extremely short or extremely flat players might actually have their left arm folded over below the right shoulder at the top of their swings.
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