Timing the Kick!

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LiftOff

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It was like walking down the fairway to my ball after a good shot. Not a care in the world then .........WHAM! Getting hit in the head by a golf ball. 'WHERE' did THAT come from?

That's how I felt after reading Brians statement: "They release the KICK better when they swing slower."

WHERE did that come from? Is it in the book? Did I miss that too? Which component would that be under?

Okay, this is where I demonstrate my breathtaking ignorance........several questions:

Can you release the kick equally well, hitting or swinging? Does one method have an advantage over another?

While I have done it, twice, I thought it was the effect of a snap release. If that 'floating feeling' isn't snap, can you practice it without a ball to develop the feel?

Is it the method that the slow moving hands pro's, most noteably El's and maybe Couples, use?

I know shafts kick, so I imagine the degree of flex would change the ease of doing it. Also if the kick point of the shaft is high or low. Would it be easier to develop with a softer shaft? High or Low kick point?

For those who use it, what pointers do you have to develop it?

I do know when it happened to me I hit life time drives but have not been able to replicate the swing. (Couldn't identify what happened.) Seems I'm getting closer as now I know WHAT happened and can work on it.

Cliff
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Once apon a time...

The first published article I ever wrote was on this very subject, It was good—and gone pecan now that we are "post-K" but here is my best shot at a simplified update (But I'm sure the equipment experts would do better than me).

At some point in the downstroke, the golfer "stresses" the shaft. It is NOT always—or even that often—in the change of direction. Trust me, for the sake of this thread, it is just simplier to think..."Somewhere on the downswing."

So, there was FORCE involved in this shaft bending/stressing. Let's say X pounds per squre inch or Xppsi.:D

The golfer who put this Xppsi, may or may not APPLY this Xppsi in an EVEN MANNER over a longer perdiod of time, or in a SHARP MANNER over a shorter period of time.

The golfer then will then either SUSTAIN all or part of this PRESSURE or Xppsi for a "certain" amount of time.

Different for EVERY golfer.

The clubshft then "unstresses."

This adds speed to the swing and becuase of torques of all kind, influence the heck out of the clubface as well.

The punch line:

Sometimes you put LESS Xppsi on the club (Less EFFORT or "Swing Easier), but you "time" whole thing better, and the KICK produces more SPEED than it may have on a swing where you used slightly MORE EFFORT and Xppsi.

BOOM!

Whew!
 
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blehnhard

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Surprise!

I have had, and I am sure many others also, the experience of planning to hit less than a full shot (grip down an inch, 3/4 smooth swing) to take maybe 5 to 10 yards off of normal distance for a club and then sending the ball the normal distance (and sometimes more).

Bruce
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
blehnhard said:
I have had, and I am sure many others also, the experience of planning to hit less than a full shot (grip down an inch, 3/4 smooth swing) to take maybe 5 to 10 yards off of normal distance for a club and then sending the ball the normal distance (and sometimes more).

Bruce
Click to expand...

You "timed the kick."

Beats "timing the flip."
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
to infinity and beyond!

blehnhard said:
I have had, and I am sure many others also, the experience of planning to hit less than a full shot (grip down an inch, 3/4 smooth swing) to take maybe 5 to 10 yards off of normal distance for a club and then sending the ball the normal distance (and sometimes more).

Bruce
Click to expand...

I find it amazing how little the "feel" of the club (hands) moves to achieve
3/4's position.

I gotta tell myself go 1/2...!
 
shortgamer

shortgamer

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While playing my best last spring I was 135 out and decided to hit a "little" 9 iron. I put the smoothest swing of my life on the ball and looked up and it was the highest 9 iron of my life that carried 160 over the green. I thought to myself what the hell just happened and how in the world do I repeat it, haven't yet.
 
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golf2much

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You've heard it all before...

shortgamer said:
While playing my best last spring I was 135 out and decided to hit a "little" 9 iron. I put the smoothest swing of my life on the ball and looked up and it was the highest 9 iron of my life that carried 160 over the green. I thought to myself what the hell just happened and how in the world do I repeat it, haven't yet.
Click to expand...

You timed the kick... to quote the BM guy. Slow down, relax and put a smooth, easy swing on every club. You'll be sirprised how often it happens.

G2M
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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shaft measurements

There are a number of facilites that measure shaft parameters during the swing... i don't want to break any site rules here but should not impinge upon any toes if i say that "True Temper" and "max out golf" measure characteristic patterns of shaft deflection.

http://www.maxoutgolf.com/index.php?page=shaft_max

http://www.truetemper.com/shaftlab/index2.html

The guy at max out golf won the US Amateur so he can play!(Mitchell C. Voges Founder, 1991 U.S. Amateur Champion, Sherman Oaks, CA)

Check out the Max out Golf webpage!

Be interesting if some of the physics guys here can comment on those graphs.

I presume that shaft deflection is secondary to lag... "single crest" players acst it so any lag is not sustained... "double crest" players have "pronounced wrist action just before impact ... is that a flip?

Their ideal, seen in the best players is the "incline" which must be a steady sustained lag pressure which ultimately has a kick... hence the shaft deflection alters at impact...

look forward to hearing what the real physics guys see in these images
 
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jmessner

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Still looking for that physics guy....

Just an engineer here, but have been into clubmaking hobby for quite awhile and am familiar at least with the Shaftlab curves. Things are more complicated than they look because the shaft rotates during the downswing which changes the relation of the measured deflection plane to the swing plane. For instance the only time the lag/lead strain gauge measurement is actually in plane with the swing plane is at impact. In clubmaking circles, it's generally said that the shaft bends forward prior to impact becuase of the high centripetal force (tensile) near impact pulls the clubhead CG inline with the shaft (forward) rather than because of being stressed. Makes physical sense but doesn't mean there isn't any contribution to the "kick" from swing characteristics. I tend to think a more relaxed swing times the release better as Jorgensen suggests in his swing model in "The Physics of Golf".
 
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LiftOff

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golf2much said:
Slow down, relax and put a smooth, easy swing on every club. You'll be sirprised how often it happens.

G2M
Click to expand...

So shortgamer's done it. Sounds like G2M also. So for players that do it all the time, there must be a bunch of you out there, what did you do to train yourself?

There's not one person who is reading this forum that wouldn't give alot to find a way to swing effortlessly. If you've been lucky enough to experience it then you'd know that it's a unique experience.

Personnally, I know swinging slow is "imperative". But what else? If you do it all the time, what are your imperatives?

Can you both hit or swing to accomplish the feat? Shortgamer, do you remember if you were hitting or swinging on that shot? For me it's been swinging/pulling.

I'll second the plea for the "resident physics guru's" input. ;)
 
shortgamer

shortgamer

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I remember seting up with a fully uncocked left wrist and using twistaway to the top with most likley an arched wrist and focusing on getting the hands to impact position wayyy before the ball.Hitting or swinging? I think i'm more of a hybrid, I think of both hands as one and try to get the whole package to the door before the club's on the porch. I will say that firing my hands from the top to the impact point allowed me to play some plus handicap golf for awhile and then I got real inconsistant and went to see Brian and I was getting the club vertical on the way down. So now I'm trying to let the arms drop down on the elbow plane and then firing to aiming point and I don't even know if this is correct but I'm hitting the ball alot better.
 
bcoak

bcoak

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Brian,
Given all the talk about shafts/equipment lately maybe you should send Tom Wishon an email and see if he would make a guest appearance. He seems to be very willing to share his knowledge and is as passionate as you are to dispel a lot of myths around equipment. just an idea.
 
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golf2much

New
I did an experiment...

LiftOff said:
So shortgamer's done it. Sounds like G2M also. So for players that do it all the time, there must be a bunch of you out there, what did you do to train yourself?

There's not one person who is reading this forum that wouldn't give alot to find a way to swing effortlessly. If you've been lucky enough to experience it then you'd know that it's a unique experience.

Personnally, I know swinging slow is "imperative". But what else? If you do it all the time, what are your imperatives?

Can you both hit or swing to accomplish the feat? Shortgamer, do you remember if you were hitting or swinging on that shot? For me it's been swinging/pulling.

I'll second the plea for the "resident physics guru's" input. ;)
Click to expand...

At the range the other night. About 200 balls in a couple of hours, probably 120 or so full swings. I was preparing for a tournament so my focus was on target and distance control, strong focus on smooth effortless swings. Out of the 120 or so, about 100 hit the target greens at 100, 125, and 150. OF those 100, maybe 10 or 12 felt "pure", with the shaft timed to impact such that I didn't even feel impact. Every one of those "pure" shots was to the back of the target green rather than the middle, which was my target. My tournament round was this morning, I shot 75 on a 7013 yd(74.6, 135) course, 13 FW, 17 Gr, and only about 3 shots all day felt "pure", all three were long, but on the green. The consistent factors between both events... enough or more club in hand for the distance, and a concious effort to be "slow". More than that, I can't offer, but I can say it doesn't happen enough!

G2M
 
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golf2much

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I suspect you may be right....

jmessner said:
Just an engineer here, but have been into clubmaking hobby for quite awhile and am familiar at least with the Shaftlab curves. Things are more complicated than they look because the shaft rotates during the downswing which changes the relation of the measured deflection plane to the swing plane. For instance the only time the lag/lead strain gauge measurement is actually in plane with the swing plane is at impact. In clubmaking circles, it's generally said that the shaft bends forward prior to impact becuase of the high centripetal force (tensile) near impact pulls the clubhead CG inline with the shaft (forward) rather than because of being stressed. Makes physical sense but doesn't mean there isn't any contribution to the "kick" from swing characteristics. I tend to think a more relaxed swing times the release better as Jorgensen suggests in his swing model in "The Physics of Golf".
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree with this for the simple reason Brian posted above. I can do this on very hard swings as well. In the case of the very hard swings, inertia is such that you can't really interfere by hand wrist manipulation; you simply aren't strong enough so the release takes care of itself. In the case of the slow, deliberate swings I have mentioned, the relaxed hands and wrists also let the release happen without interference.
 
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