Toe Hits - Help!

[sonofwheel]

I just can't hit the ball with the middle of the clubface. It happens from Driver to wedges. The clubface is square to the target but the contact is never inside center and mostly towards the toe. Is this an alignment, ball position, equipment fitting or some other problem (e.g. optical)?

 

[bantamben1]

stand closer to the ball and if you shank it your not swinging from the inside enough in other words your plane is pointed left of where you are aiming

 

[Brian Manzella]

You need more THROW-OUT action and maybe even more 'swing to the inside-aft quadrant.'

 

[ian d m]

A few more answers please....

You say the face is mostly square; what is the tendency when it isn't ? What's your handicap ? Have you been a slicer ? Are your divots deep on the toe side ? Or are they even ? How tall are you ? Are your clubs too short ? 5-iron shaft length ?Do you tend to 'pop' up your driver (a sky ball) sometimes ?

 

[sonofwheel]

Ian d m:
I miss it both ways (hook, pull & push, slice) but not real often. My USGA Index is 9.0 mostly because of a poor short game -pitch,chip & putt. I have not been a slicer. I am 64 years old and a bit overweight The lie I use is 2* Upright. I am 6'4" tall and have tried using 5-iron lengths from 37.5 up to 39.5. I do hit a high ball with all my clubs and play a 9* Driver with a weak stiff/firm Regular flex and 2.8-3.5* torque. My driver swingspeed is 95-98mph. I have been building clubs for nearly 20 years so have been able to experiment.

 

[bantamben1]

you said you hit a high ball, make sure you dont come out of your posture on the downswing alot of players come out of the shot on the way down which causes them to throw it away a little which will hit the ball higher and also a little out towards the toe. give that a try trying to rotate around your spine on the downswing and dont come up.

 

[ian d m]

Are your divots deeper on the toe side ? Or are they even ? 5-iron shaft length ? Do you tend to 'pop' up your driver (a sky ball) sometimes ?

These final questions are important.

It sounds your arms are swinging down too straight. But its hard to know yet without the divot information (see above). And are the marks on your driver, that are on the toe, high on the face ? Have you ever done a dynamic lie test ? Where were the marks on the toe, even, or on the heel of the sole ?

Given the new information of a lowish handicap and a poor short game it sounds like you are steep coming down with your arms with insufficient loft on the clubface. Most poor short games (of decent players) occur when the leading edge digs in too sharply - the better pitches fly too low and the bad ones are duffs and then thins as you react and get scared to "stick it in the ground". Great pitchers are hitting with the bounce, the face open or "lofted".

The club length is important. Usually, when all other things are constant, the longer the club, the more you are likely to hit toward the heel - so this might help.

 

[sonofwheel]

I would say sometimes my divots are deeper on the toe side but not often and not by much if any. They are usually pretty flat but often going a little left of target. I don't popup my Driver but I do hit the ball towards the high toe frequently. Your description of my short game is very accurate. I tend to hit long irons and fairway woods well and on target. I am more likely to hit the green with a 3,4,5 or 6 iron than with a sw,pw,9 or 8 iron. I am, however, a very good bunker player, both geenside and fairway bunkers. I have done several dynamic lie tests and that is why I play 2* upright (approximately). Yesterday, one of my playing partners pointed out that my stance was quite closed and I was lining up toward the right of the target. Fixing my alignment tended to improve my ball striking but it is too early to tell if it will solve the toe hits problem.

 

[sonofwheel]

Brian:
Where can I find a description of THROW-OUT action and how to achieve it?

 

[ian d m]

It sounds like your arms are too steep coming down - which, if just by itself would lead to high rights, toe deep divots, shots on the toe; but you are quite a reasonable golfer so you have taught yourself (sub-consciously) to compensate for it.

When the arms swing "too straight" they can't re-rotate the clubface back to square up for the hit. Yet, you often hit straight so this is accomplished by either a strong grip or you hood the face somehow (most likely by bowing your wrists in the backswing or early in the downswwing).

You need to get your arms to rotate the face more open in the backswing; a bit like what Hogan said he did to fix himself. Take some practice swings 24-30 cm (I guess you are an American - so 2-3 ft) above the ball. You need to see the swing more around; rotate the arms clockwise in the backswing and anti-clockwise as you swing back OUT</u> through your starting point.

Initially, you may begin to hook but the contact point should start to move down lower and more to the centre of the face. If you hook (and your grip is strong fix that; for a regular, grooved golfer this is uncomfortable, sorry) if your grip is not strong then look for some hooding/closing of the face somewhere else and try and open it. The idea for you is to hit a high hook, where it feels that the face was much more open than it was - to do that the club has to come down much more from the inside in order to square itself up.

Onto the pitching: same thing as the full swing. But you need to do a lot of practice swings to train it all otherwise it could be a bit scary at the start. Same thing; you need more arc to this little swing, it has to come more from the inside with the face more open - where is the bottom of the swing (the divot) ? Is it approximately where you started ? Where the ball would have been ? Probably not; its probably too early. Keep trying. Remember to hit with the face more open with the bounce, more from the inside and hit the ground in the same place and you'll train your hands and arms what to do.

Good luck and don't be worried if you start to hit some thin shots (or even top some fairway woods) this will mean you are on more of an arc which is the key to the whole deal. Stay away from the card and pencil (and wagering) for a while as you will be a bit wobbly.

 

[anakin]

Too many possibility...I can only name two
Are you hitting behind... only if you are hitting behind (too much) with your iron, that mean the low point could be well before the impact. Think about the arc.. in to out THEN TO IN.. if your clubface caught the ball while the club after the low point.. then .... it should give you some toe mark.

Brain is also right, lack of centrifugal reaction, where the club need more throw out action... for driver

 

[sonofwheel]

Thanks guys for the suggestions! Especially Ian D M. I will work on it. I don't have a strong grip...in fact, I use a neutral or even weak grip but I am quite steep and upright swing plane. I have been accused of "hooding" my chips and pitches....maybe even my full swing? Are you suggesting I focus on rotating my arms (and the clubhead) more open (clockwise) on the backswing and closing (counterclockwise) on the swing and follow-through? I have often felt I did not have a good release and this may be the cause.

 

[ian d m]

Hey Mr Wheel !

Are you gettin' it ? What's happened to the ball flight ? The divot ?
Contact point on the face ? Are you scuffing the bounce on the ground or are you laying sod ?

ian

 

[sonofwheel]

Ian d m: I played today (shot 80) but am still hitting off the toe. I was more successful with the pitching by using the bounce of the wedge(s). Ball flight was good but hit several drives off the toe. Most went straight and were on the edge of the fairway or just off in the light rough. I also hit some of the irons off the toe. This creates distance control issues. The rotation back and through seemed to create some timing issues as I was late on some (fades) and early on some (hooks) with the driver. It was less a problem with the irons. I only had 2 1-putt greens (34 putts). All my putts were close to going in but not much fell. I will have to continue to work on it. btw: when I needed to hit a fade on one drive, I hit the ball in the center of the clubface (not on the toe) with the face open and created more of a slice than the fade I was trying for but the ball contact was dead in the center of the clubface.
Dean

 

[ian d m]

Congratulations on the pitching.

"btw: when I needed to hit a fade on one drive, I hit the ball in the center of the clubface (not on the toe) with the face open and created more of a slice than the fade I was trying for but the ball contact was dead in the center of the clubface."

this is interesting - it means that when you swing to the left (to produce a fade) the club gets on less of a straight line and swings out but still blocks itself (stays too open). Probably means your clubhead is too low in the takeaway - and its from here your arms swing to straight up (in the backswing). Try cocking your wrists upward, at the same time turn your right shoulder back and feel your arms stay inside the movement of the club - then let them go around at the end of your backswing.

It is difficult to convey the right feel in words (so much simpler when a student is there). The overall feel will be a bit like the videos of the really old players who turned, dragged the handle back before the clubhead and the let it go round.

ian

 

[sonofwheel]

Ian:
In Brian M's "Never Slice Again" video, he suggests turning the hands and setting the wrists very early in the backswing and then just turning to the top. Is this what you have in mind?
Dean

 

[ian d m]

Dean

I haven't seen that video.

I'll try and explain it another way: I suspect your wrist action features some 'down-cocking' and clubface hooding in the takeaway. So to 'neutralise' this you would need to do the opposite: cock your wrists (so your thumbs start coming) up in the take-away as you turn, and keep you arms inside the movement of the club. From here, let it go around so the backswing finishes on an arc and not a straight line.

"The overall feel will be a bit like the videos of the really old fashioned players who turned, dragged the handle back before the clubhead and then let it go round".

Ian.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

No one has said the obvious so i will....when was the last time you had your lie angles checked?

To upright a lie angle will cause toe hits.

 

[ian d m]

Why would too upright a lie angle cause toe hits ?

A club that's shorter would tend to contact on the toe, assuming everything else stayed the same.

 

[MizunoJoe]

Homer said that the lie of the club wasn't significant because the ball is(should be) struck before the clubhead hits the ground.

The solution to the toe hit problem is to stretch the left arm and line up in standard address position with the ball toward the toe. Then hit the ball with the clubhead moving down and out on it's way to low point.