Too fast

[Ty Webb]

PP#4

"Monitor.. but then wht do you do with that monitoring?"

Throwout and/or blastoff. PP#4 is the primary lever assembly's conection to the pivot. Juniors often have too much spin and not enough throwout. Strive for the 3 D impact down, out, forward. Lead arm only into an impact bag while monitoring PP#4 for throwout should do it.

 

[JeffM]

I am reading two different opinions as to what being "stuck" means.

Ringer is arguing that being "stuck" is a situation where the hips and shoulders rotate too fast at the start of the downswing, in a spinning motion involving both the hips and shoulders, that causes the clubshaft to lag behind (club laid off) despite the hands being OTT. I think that this type of of "stuck" problem afflicts beginner golfers, who are young and therefore capable of very fast rotatory torso (both upper and lower body) movements, but who don't have a hip shift movement before they have a rotatory hip movement at the start of the downswing.

I don't believe that professional golfers, like Tiger Woods, get "stuck" in the manner that Ringer describes.

The other way of getting "stuck" is when the hips outrace the shoulders, so that both the shoulders and arms lag behind the lower body. This is particularly likely to occur with a better golfer who has a good shift-rotation transition hip move, rather than a pure rotatory hip transition move (which predisposes to hip/shoulder spinning). Tiger Woods suffers from this type of being "stuck" feeling, where the shift rotation of the hips causes the hips to outrace the shoulders and arms. Why do I believe this? Because Tiger Woods states this in his book, and he stated that it was a great problem when he was younger (aged 16 years) when he had much too-fast hips. He stated that he has to constantly try to slow his hips down so that the rest of his body (upper torso and arms) can keep up with his lower body. He produced photos to demonstrate how much faster his hips were when he was 16 years of age, compared to 24 years of age.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Tiger-ImpactAges.jpg

In photos of his latest swings, it would seem that his hips are even less open to the target than it was when he was 24 years of age. I therefore conclude that Tiger Woods is constantly trying to slow his lower body down, so that his upper body and arms can synchronise better with his lower body during the downswing.

Jeff.

 

[Spike]

Hi Jeff and all,

I, too, see that getting stuck can come from two areas, assuming there isn't on OTT move.

Timing and/or release through impact.

The timing issue of hips, shoulders, hands and arms has always been a plague in the golf swing. For Tiger to "slow the hips down" in his swing indicates to me that "thrust" of the hands and arms against the club is not early enough in the downswing.

I believe that the thrust on a straight plane line will dictate the actions of the hips and shoulders in the downswing therefore eliminating the "timing problem" it takes to operate the moving parts.

I kind of see it like those old toys called a Top...you push straight down on the knob and the Top/toy spins. Now, even though there is Axis Tilt in the set up and swing condition, a shift will take place, this should not be an issue due to the alignments of the shaft to the body.

The other way of getting stuck is in the release area. If there isn't a pre-programed release through impact then it is quite possible to "get stuck" or flip.

I really think it is possible to eliminate the timing issue in the swing when thrust is thoroughly understood. MHO

 

[JeffM]

Spike

When you state that thrust on the club is not early enough, what is producing the thrust and when should it occur?

When you state that you "believe that the thrust on a straight plane line will dictate the actions of the hips and shoulders in the downswing", what do you mean? What should the hips and shoulders be doing?

Jeff.

 

[Spike]

Hi Jeff,

I see it as thrust before/over speed. The hips and shoulders will merely respond to the hand and arm action of, say, throwing or uncocking. It is interesting that when you try to get rid of the clubhead as the first thing in the downswing it actually becomes heavier and this thrust pushes the parts of the body out of the way. Of course the direction you fire the clubhead should be on a straight plane line down, out and then through the ball. This takes some hand education and not hard to actually learn. It also is easier on the body as the sinchroniztion of the moving parts blend quite easily.

This gives you that "heavy" feeling I think Homer was talking about in 2-E. So, it makes sense to me that thrust should always win over speed. I hope that makes some sense.

 

[JeffM]

Spike

I can understand the idea of the idea of the "hand action" of throwing a ball side-throw (like throwing a frisbee or skipping stones across a pond) where the hands start the throw (via a thrusting push action) and the body responds to the throw (responds to the movement of the hands/arms).

However, it is my strong belief that Hogan and Woods have a golf swing where the body starts the swing (first lower body and then upper body) and where the arms are passively flung forward (pulled forward) via a double pendulum swing action - see http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/swing1.php?ref=golfcoast

I don't understand the term "thrust" with respect to their swings because there is no "push" phenomenon in their downswings.

Jeff.

 

[Spike]

Hi Jeff,

You can most certainly pull with the hips or bump/pull with the hips to initiate the down swing....no arguement there.

You can also apply pressure to the shaft when it is out of alignment to the body's center and activate the hip turn in the downswing. I was just watching a swing of Hogan's the other day where he is hitting balls into the ocean. Kinda reminded me of the Seinfeld episode with Krammer and his bag of Titleists

Anyway, Hogan was using a sitting LCT to prime his backswing and as soon as his wrists loaded he fired the clubhead toward the ball. Now, I know what we see first when he does this, which is what you said that the hips move first.

But what has come to light through the use of the swivel disks is that the instant that thrust is applied to the shaft that is not centered to the body, the hips and body want to respond. This is to say that educated hands control an educated pivot. Whether Hogan was doing that or not I'll never know and frankly if he was he probably wouldn't tell anyone anyway , from what I hear.

Regardless of that, I just wanted to address the "getting stuck" part that was mentioned. It is my belief that when pulling the swing around you will have timing and directional issues. Not that these issues cannot be overcome but I say why bother with it?

 

[JeffM]

Spike - you stated "It is my belief that when pulling the swing around you will have timing and directional issues. Not that these issues cannot be overcome but I say why bother with it?"

It is my personal belief that you will have far less timing and directional issues when pulling through the swing than pushing through the swing, so why bother with pushing.

Jeff.

 

[Spike]

And the beat goes on....

When we are hitting a ball there will always be muscular forces also true when swinging a club. It doesn't take a lot of thrust to get things going in the right direction. What is nice about this thrust is that it maintains a condition to where the hands and arms stay in front of the body. This minimizes stress on the back and body parts.

Whereas it is easier to get the body out in front of the hands and arms by trying to over work the hips, thus a timing issue, shoulder stress, back pain, etc.

Now, if you are pulling the club down with your hands and arms then there would be less of the timing issue of hip rotation in the downswing. But the stress on the body that comes from this move can be tremendous.

Pushing is easier to teach and do, creates an effortless feeling of power and promotes good golfing health, imho.

 

[birdie_man]

Kinda reminded me of the Seinfeld episode with Krammer and his bag of Titleists

Was that the one where he yelled at the black people???

...

(JKJKJK.........love Seinfeld........he blew it huge tho)

 

[Spike]

Was that the one where he yelled at the black people???

...

(JKJKJK.........love Seinfeld........he blew it huge tho)

Nah, George was pretending to be a Marine Biologist to get some chick. Krammer went to the beach to hit his Titleists. George and his girl were walking on the beach and came across a beached whale with a crowd around it. The girl says...hey my boyfriend is a Marine Biologist. So George climbs the beast, reaches into the blow-hole and pulls out a Titleist and saves the day!

Not to get too far off topic but how'd Seinfeld blow it?

 

[birdie_man]

Hehe thanks Spike.....I've have seen that one tho......and it WAS for sure funny man.

As for blowing it (yelling at black people)- Michael Richards (Kramer) went off on some racial rant....he really went nuts. Should be on YouTube still.....

....and if you watch, cover your children's, grandma's, and dog's ears......and I warn you- you prolly will never look at Kramer the same way again...

(it really is bad tho)

(BTW I do realize this is someone's thread....I don't wanna take it too far off topic)

 

[Amen Corner]

The major problem among juniors and flexible golfers is that their body "outraces" their arms.

What are your suggestions on how to resolve this?

I am investigating on how to make a bracelet with the inscription
WWBD

Have them work with Towel Plane Board....

 

[Spike]

Hehe thanks Spike.....I've have seen that one tho......and it WAS for sure funny man.

As for blowing it (yelling at black people)- Michael Richards (Kramer) went off on some racial rant....he really went nuts. Should be on YouTube still.....

....and if you watch, cover your children's, grandma's, and dog's ears......and I warn you- you prolly will never look at Kramer the same way again...

(it really is bad tho)

(BTW I do realize this is someone's thread....I don't wanna take it too far off topic)

Wasn't talikin' 'bout you my good man.........me Seinfeld cracks me up!!!

 

[birdie_man]

Wasn't talikin' 'bout you my good man.........me Seinfeld cracks me up!!!

O shoot man....didn't even notice you had written that Spike. I just was thinking the same thing.

And again (y'all).....sorry to take it MORE off topic!! I be done. (yarr)