Too much swivel?

[smooth]

Hi guys, i've had a bit of a problem of closing the clubface too much on the downswing and hitting iron shots straight left (have put a barrier outside of the ball so have confirmed not bending the plane left).

My instructor has me working on very small swings below waist high trying to hit the ball straight, which for the life of me i'm finding very difficult! anything with compression is still going a long way left (hit the odd ones straight but with no compression).

On the weekend out of frustration i karate chopped my left hand down at the ball and didn't think about rotation of the hands - worked well, lots of compression and the ball went straight.

The question is have i built too much rotation into my swing and now have to scale it back? doing so feels really scary as it *feels* like i'm going to shank it each time.

Thanks!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Too Much of a good thing?

Can you swivel too much?

For funzies, let's say that the "Swivel" is a flat left wristed full roll of the left arm and wrist to "wedding ring up."

Now....can you do that too much?

To start with, some folks have too strong a grip for that kind of swivel, and shouldn't use it.

Or it just doesn't suit their pattern.

But....

I can fade it doing it.

So....

If you are hooking-pulling-leftshoting, and you want to full roll swivel, you need more:

1. Left path

2. Axis tilt WITH open shoulders & hips

3. Forward hands

4. Open face

 

[smooth]

Thanks Brian, i think point number 3 has it, more forward lean. Thats the sensation i got anyway when thinking karate chop with the left hand.. ball flight immediately straightened out. Maybe a bit of leakage has crept in, prematurely closing the face.

Thanks again

 

[ggsjpc]

Thanks Brian, i think point number 3 has it, more forward lean. Thats the sensation i got anyway when thinking karate chop with the left hand.. ball flight immediately straightened out. Maybe a bit of leakage has crept in, prematurely closing the face.

Thanks again

Try changing the when instead of the amount.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Brian is my teacher for life based on our first meeting when he hit the full roll fade. Honestly.

 

[Zztop]

Brian is my teacher for life based on our first meeting when he hit the full roll fade. Honestly.

Did he do that with a Manzella neutral grip?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Did he do that with a Manzella neutral grip?

Probably BUT you can still fade it doing that by adjusting plane line/club face alignments. I have done it for students in a lesson to PROVE to them you won't hook it off the earth with that type of swivel if you do it right.

 

[Zztop]

Probably BUT you can still fade it doing that by adjusting plane line/club face alignments. I have done it for students in a lesson to PROVE to them you won't hook it off the earth with that type of swivel if you do it right.

So it 's not grip type dependent i.e. strong or neutral?

 

[Kevin Shields]

His is neutral but you can be slightly stronger and still fade it with a full roll.

 

[Zztop]

His is neutral but you can be slightly stronger and still fade it with a full roll.

If you think about it, knowing that alone blows up the old ball flight laws. Most people would think you'd hook it off the planet doing that. So you would have to say to yourself what else is going on here to make that happen?

 

[jenhaoyen]

Can you swivel too much?

For funzies, let's say that the "Swivel" is a flat left wristed full roll of the left arm and wrist to "wedding ring up."

Now....can you do that too much?

To start with, some folks have too strong a grip for that kind of swivel, and shouldn't use it.

Or it just doesn't suit their pattern.

But....

I can fade it doing it.

So....

If you are hooking-pulling-leftshoting, and you want to full roll swivel, you need more:

1. Left path

2. Axis tilt WITH open shoulders & hips

3. Forward hands

4. Open face

that's very true......i can hit a fade with full roll swivel.

 

[mrose]

that's very true......i can hit a fade with full roll swivel.

how insightful.

i've been working recently on the feeling of having a square clubface and flat left wrist in that position coming down where the toe points roughly up for the last time. taking really slow swings i realised that i was a bit closed here and when i found a better position it felt slightly uncomfortable and unfamiliar but hit some extremely square shots. by square i don't mean literally dead square but that condition where if you want to hit driver with a 5 yard cut or a 5 yard draw... you just hit it and know it'll go there. neutral is probably a better term for it. i had the idea of looking at this position (shaft parallel and toe up(ish)) because any compensations through the ball wouldn't take effect until after impact. if any tendencies away from neutral are to be fixed they better be fixed prior to 'through the ball' unless you want to steer it around.

after i found this position a few times i realised that i had to hold back any forearm rotation starting down and almost feel a slight reverse roll starting down. previously my clubface would have been very slightly closed and with a slightly bowed left wrist. i'm too stubborn to hold it off so it's great to be able to pivot freely again and let it go.

the feeling of coming into impact knowing the clubface is slightly open while shallow and not steep is a whole lot of fun. birdied 3 out of 4 par 5s on sat in the dead middle of winter with frost crunching under the boots.

no doubt it'll fall apart this coming weekend.

 

[kc8kir]

Wouldn't Jack Nicklaus be someone who faded with a full roll swivel, from a draw based swing, but changed the face angle and alignments to fade it?

I personally struggle with full roll swivel. Can't seem to get my hands to whip through to that butt of the club inverted, hands extended down the target line look. Continuing to try. Works in slow motion, but full speed... hmm... not yet.

 

[vjsinger]

I would add one thing to Brians list that can be accomplished by having the hips and shoulders open to the target line, but it is a feel thing. For me, I hit it way left when I "lose my stretch", or "the slack comes out" of my left side when I swing, and I have a "strong grip". I can accomplish the hips and shoulders open to the target line, and all the other things on that list, and still hit it way left. You have to"retain the stretch", as Brian has said to me. I feel this in my left lat/rib cage area. This feel,for me, is only with an iron. With the driver the stretch actually lessens a little on the way down...I'd keep that in mind, it is a big key. Cheers.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Finish Swivel.

Wouldn't Jack Nicklaus be someone who faded with a full roll swivel, from a draw based swing, but changed the face angle and alignments to fade it?

To a certain extent, yes.

I personally struggle with full roll swivel. Can't seem to get my hands to whip through to that butt of the club inverted, hands extended down the target line look. Continuing to try. Works in slow motion, but full speed... hmm... not yet.

For the record, I do not teach a flat-left-wristed-full-roll-swivel to all of my students.

The percentage is probably around half—when I see folks initially. Long term, it winds up being slightly less than a third.

It is something that most folks NEED TO LEARN TO DO, at some point, because it is anti-twistaway insurance. And almost everyone needs a little twistaway at some point in there swing.

If I were someone trying to figure out my finish swivel, I would swing to the point where the shaft is vertical for the last time, and try having the clubface point everywhere from AT the target, to 180° AWAY from the target.

Ideal will be in there somewhere.

 

[birdie_man]

Lately I have been doing a lot of full rolling it (to weddhng ring up) with a neutral grip. (wrists vertical at address)

I have been hitting too much of a fade! (push fade) It is nearly unplayable at times...

(honest)

Why do golf swings have to be like gardens...

 

[Jared Willerson]

Lately I have been doing a lot of full rolling it (to weddhng ring up) with a neutral grip. (wrists vertical at address)

I have been hitting too much of a fade! (push fade) It is nearly unplayable at times...

(honest)

Why do golf swings have to be like gardens...

I wish there was a magic bullet too..

I need to do more roll I think. I am hitting a lot of hold it off blocks that are devoid of power and go right.

 

[jimmydean]

brian,
any visual of the different swivels you speak of? i struggle with the hooks when i use a full roll swivel. any suggestions?
thanks,
jimmy

 

[dannyc]

brian,
any visual of the different swivels you speak of? i struggle with the hooks when i use a full roll swivel. any suggestions?
thanks,
jimmy

full roll "on the movie screen" would have the clubface and your right palm looking at the target. 180 degrees from that would have the clubface looking at you and your left palm looking toward the target.

 

[curtisj76]

For the life of me I can't seem to picture a full roll fade. When I think of a full roll I'm thinking the ball is gonna go left.