too much uncocking of left wrist, toey divots (MUST READ MANZELLA Answer)

[brucifer]

Hi,

I seem to have a problem where I always 'over' uncock the left wrist during the downswing and have compensated by lifting up a little. My divots generally appear to be dig toe in, and the clubs are meant to be the correct lie for me.

Its definitely an 'over' uncocking of the left wrist.
There is no angle between my left arm and the club at impact, completely straight.

Is this a common issue, I would imagine it is, as its easily done?

And anyone give me an idea if it is something I'm doing wrong elsewhere in the swing that is causing it?

And perhaps a drill or fix?

Thanks,
B

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hmmm....

Hi,

I seem to have a problem where I always 'over' uncock the left wrist during the downswing and have compensated by lifting up a little. My divots generally appear to be dig toe in, and the clubs are meant to be the correct lie for me.

Its definitely an 'over' uncocking of the left wrist.
There is no angle between my left arm and the club at impact, completely straight.

Is this a common issue, I would imagine it is, as its easily done?

And anyone give me an idea if it is something I'm doing wrong elsewhere in the swing that is causing it?

And perhaps a drill or fix?

Thanks,
B

So "Bruce,"

Can you tell me what you are trying to do in your swing?

BManz

 

[brucifer]

So "Bruce,"

Can you tell me what you are trying to do in your swing?

BManz

Brian,

At the minute, only working on two things.
1) I'm trying to hit down on the ball and not flip it, so I just want to uncock and roll as per TGM sequencing. Uncocking the left wrist should give me some power, is it velocity power Ben calls it?

2) I'm trying to keep my right wrist bent back to keep lag into the ball.

I just appear to be overdoing it somehow. And when I look at the swing, all divots with all clubs are toe first, and the shaft at impact is straight enough but from DTL view, it is completely inline with my left arm, one big straight line or even more than 180 degrees

You know the TGM has pictures, level, cocked and uncocked, well I have a fourth, 'more uncocked'

Also, my friends think its amusing when I hit big drives with one hand, my right hand comes off quite frequently, not sure if thats related tho.

I think maybe subconsciously I feel like I'll catch it fat and lift up, if I don't then I do catch it fat.
I'm not sure how to deliver the right amount of uncocking into the ball and maintain any angle between the shaft and my left arm.

Also I feel like if you try to use Accum #3, rotate the left forearm, then you tend to end up flipping more often, which is why I like to use the 'twistaway' feel and keep the clubface on the planeline the whole time, facing the ball.

A lot of swing thoughts perhaps, haha, but the one I want to get fixed right now is this toey divot and controlling the uncock of left wrist.

Bruce

 

[Amen Corner]

brucifer,

What is your ballflight with these divots?

And what ballflight would you like to have?

 

[brucifer]

Ball flight isn't actually too bad.

Driver has been coming out very low, but irons aren't bad at all.

Occasionally I feel like I 'slap' the ball and get a weak shot, 2 clubs less distance.

And they tend to go right if anything, blocked.

I just know from the divots and aesthetics that it its just not right.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Be careful trying to uncock your wrist.....with your wrist. Let the forces from your swing uncock them. Whether thats the rotational force coming outward from your body or the late right arm addition, dont try to use your left wrist to uncock itself.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

Brian,

At the minute, only working on two things.
1) I'm trying to hit down on the ball and not flip it, so I just want to uncock and roll as per TGM sequencing. Uncocking the left wrist should give me some power, is it velocity power Ben calls it?

2) I'm trying to keep my right wrist bent back to keep lag into the ball.

I just appear to be overdoing it somehow. And when I look at the swing, all divots with all clubs are toe first, and the shaft at impact is straight enough but from DTL view, it is completely inline with my left arm, one big straight line or even more than 180 degrees

You know the TGM has pictures, level, cocked and uncocked, well I have a fourth, 'more uncocked'

Also, my friends think its amusing when I hit big drives with one hand, my right hand comes off quite frequently, not sure if thats related tho.

I think maybe subconsciously I feel like I'll catch it fat and lift up, if I don't then I do catch it fat.
I'm not sure how to deliver the right amount of uncocking into the ball and maintain any angle between the shaft and my left arm.

Also I feel like if you try to use Accum #3, rotate the left forearm, then you tend to end up flipping more often, which is why I like to use the 'twistaway' feel and keep the clubface on the planeline the whole time, facing the ball.

A lot of swing thoughts perhaps, haha, but the one I want to get fixed right now is this toey divot and controlling the uncock of left wrist.

Bruce

This is the problem with people learning TGM. Very little of this is of useful knowledge to the golfer.

The good golfer uses the orbit of the clubhead to load the no.2 and no.3 accumulator. Its an anatomical certainty that if you set the clubhead in motion, that the hand will automatically turn to the plane as the clubhead travels around its secondary orbit (think semi-circle) around the left hand. During startup, there is a pressure created against the left hand which the golfer can either by push against inorder to load no.2 earlier or wait for the left arm to slow and snap load at the top of the backstroke. The problem is that most don't see the golf stroke in terms of dynamism. The orbit creates the wrist conditions, not the other way around.

That sounds very complex so what did we learn of practical use. We need to set the clubhead off correctly and you don't really have to think about that other stuff because its automatic. Great!

Likewise the wrist conditions on the downstroke are dynamic and have little value in trying to achieve certain conditions.

 

[brucifer]

Do you not think you need some conscious control of the uncocking process or else I could end up unloading the power at any point really, I imagine, generally a few inches behind the ball.

Even with the shake the sugar or catch the drop drill, do you not think there has to be some conscious control of that unload process in the wrists?

Maybe I'm completely wrong. I just keep thinking of these as accumulators that need to be sequenced and released. 4,1,2,3.

I'm listening here, maybe I need to start focusing on something else entirely.

Hit the ball with my pivot... but do you instructors not find that people find that a bit difficult to do without understanding how the other components work?

I really don't think I can just sit there with some limp wrists and pivot and hit a shot, I just wouldn't feel like I had any control at all over low point or anything else.

Bruce

 

[Brian Manzella]

Do you not think you need some conscious control of the uncocking process or else I could end up unloading the power at any point really, I imagine, generally a few inches behind the ball.

Even with the shake the sugar or catch the drop drill, do you not think there has to be some conscious control of that unload process in the wrists?

Maybe I'm completely wrong. I just keep thinking of these as accumulators that need to be sequenced and released. 4,1,2,3.

I'm listening here, maybe I need to start focusing on something else entirely.

Hit the ball with my pivot... but do you instructors not find that people find that a bit difficult to do without understanding how the other components work?

I really don't think I can just sit there with some limp wrists and pivot and hit a shot, I just wouldn't feel like I had any control at all over low point or anything else.

Bruce

Bruce,

I will have detailed answer for you tonight...please wait

 

[curtisj76]

Even with the shake the sugar or catch the drop drill, do you not think there has to be some conscious control of that unload process in the wrists?

Personally, I don't think of anything on the downswing so I guess my "not even close to being an expert" answer would be NO. Unloading is probably the last thing I think of. Once again, no expert, just a huge Hawkeye fan...

 

[Brian Manzella]

This one's for free, "Bruce"

I seem to have a problem where I always 'over' uncock the left wrist during the downswing and have compensated by lifting up a little. My divots generally appear to be dig toe in, and the clubs are meant to be the correct lie for me.

Its definitely an 'over' uncocking of the left wrist.
There is no angle between my left arm and the club at impact, completely straight.

Is this a common issue, I would imagine it is, as its easily done?

"Easily done?"

Not quite.

There are two main reasons someone would have a completely uncocked wrist at impact.

#1. They have a too open face on the downswing, and because of it, make an over-the-top, above the plane move—with roundhouse shoulders and no target-ward tailbone slide. This makes the whole power package (arms, hands, and club unit) move as if to hit a ball teed up well over a foot off the ground.

Nobody misses it that badly, because they make a desperate "fit in" move, which includes everything necessary to take the clubhead INWARD toward the ball. This includes standing straighter up, and uncocking the heck out of the wrists. The main reason why poor golfers lie angles are always too flat for them, and why so many "fitted" clubs used to be 5 or 6 degrees upright.

Like so...
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#2. Someone, somewhere taught the poor golfer to PURPOSELY UNCOCK THE WRISTS before the clubface started turning off the plane. The dreaded "Sequenced Release" that may be the worse idea I ever tested in my teaching in my whole life.

More about why it is a bad idea later.

And anyone give me an idea if it is something I'm doing wrong elsewhere in the swing that is causing it?

I'd bet REAL HIGH on #2 above.

Brian,

At the minute, only working on two things.
1) I'm trying to hit down on the ball and not flip it, so I just want to uncock and roll as per TGM sequencing. Uncocking the left wrist should give me some power, is it velocity power Ben calls it?

I like it, throw Ben's name in there for effect. You read that somewhere?

The wrist HAVE TO uncock, they just shouldn't do it so completely before any roll takes place. Again, I'll get to that in a second.

As far as power goes, unclocking the wrist alone won't give you much power. But that's for later as well.

2) I'm trying to keep my right wrist bent back to keep lag into the ball.

Well, there is another problem.

(I may be giving you too much information for free, but whatever)

If you have TOO MUCH BEND in your right wrist at impact, and everything else is "orthodox," you will NEED TO uncock your wrist more than normal to make contact with the ball and then the turf.

Because, the club just got shorter.

I just appear to be overdoing it somehow. And when I look at the swing, all divots with all clubs are toe first, and the shaft at impact is straight enough but from DTL view, it is completely inline with my left arm, one big straight line or even more than 180 degrees

You know the TGM has pictures, level, cocked and uncocked, well I have a fourth, 'more uncocked'

I think you told us this already.

Also, my friends think its amusing when I hit big drives with one hand, my right hand comes off quite frequently, not sure if thats related tho.

Actually it is, see above.

I think maybe subconsciously I feel like I'll catch it fat and lift up, if I don't then I do catch it fat.

Again, see above ("club shortening").

I'm not sure how to deliver the right amount of uncocking into the ball and maintain any angle between the shaft and my left arm.

And with all that book "knowledge."

Also I feel like if you try to use Accum #3, rotate the left forearm, then you tend to end up flipping more often, which is why I like to use the 'twistaway' feel and keep the clubface on the planeline the whole time, facing the ball.

You tend to flip it more often.

Occasionally I feel like I 'slap' the ball and get a weak shot, 2 clubs less distance.

And they tend to go right if anything, blocked.

I just know from the divots and aesthetics that it its just not right.

If you uncock too early without enough roll, you often CAN'T square the club up.

Do you not think you need some conscious control of the uncocking process or else I could end up unloading the power at any point really

No.

You are doing the opposite and having little success.

I NEVER DO THAT CRAP and I always have no problem with "early unload."

Even with the shake the sugar or catch the drop drill, do you not think there has to be some conscious control of that unload process in the wrists?

No.

Not it the way you are trying to emulate, anyway.

"Shake the sugar" is a "Power Package" move not and "Accumulator" move, for the most part.

(In english, "Shake the sugar" is something I tell folks who are HOLDING THEIR ARMS UP too long.)

"Catch the Drop" is a Pivot thought, often told to folks who over accelerate their arms.

Without an overly open clubface, a good pivot, and after you straighten out a golfer's plane line, you will rarely have any trouble at all with low point OR with "early release," much less left arm to clubshaft (#3 Accumulator angle) problems.

You aren't using one of those silly "tripod" pivots now, are you?

Maybe I'm completely wrong. I just keep thinking of these as accumulators that need to be sequenced and released. 4,1,2,3.

Have you ever looked at a lot of really high-speed video or good 3D?

Well maybe you have, but without rose colored glasses?

The way that I have seen TGM Book Literalist demonstrate so-called "Sequenced Release" is so un-golf like, so unlike any golfer ever who could play dead in a war movie ever swung, that just watching it will stunt your golfing growth.

I'm listening here, maybe I need to start focusing on something else entirely.

No doubt.

Hit the ball with my pivot... but do you instructors not find that people find that a bit difficult to do without understanding how the other components work?

"Hit it with your pivot" is NOT something that you talk about unless a golfer obviously is a player who doesn't use their pivot properly.

Your arms need to swing from your shoulder sockets. You need to have enough unwind to balance out your axis tilt, the "Manzella Rule" so to speak.

You need to know when to ADD right arm, as per "Soft Draw" (Aaron Zick influenced).

I really don't think I can just sit there with some limp wrists and pivot and hit a shot, I just wouldn't feel like I had any control at all over low point or anything else.

I absolutely never tell a golfer to do that either.

Low Point control, basically is controlled by:

1. Plane Line

2. Hip slide

3. Upper Body rotation

4. "Carry"

5. Hand positioning, relative to the right elbow & the hip slide

6. Left Hand grip

7. Left Shoulder height

8. Right wrist uncocking and unbending (It uncocks FASTER than the left wrist)

9. Right Arm straightening

10. Hand Path relative to the body
​

That's the easy version.

I don't want you to overload on good information.

 

[jenhaoyen]

noodle arm, throw those pasta sauce off those noodle arm.

 

[brucifer]

This is Jack doing essentially what I have been doing.

Brian, I'm just awake, so going to digest your information now.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Personally, I don't think of anything on the downswing so I guess my "not even close to being an expert" answer would be NO. Unloading is probably the last thing I think of. Once again, no expert, just a huge Hawkeye fan...

everytime i try to control my wrist i start to hit the ball really bad.

 

[rcw]

"This is Jack doing essentially what I have been doing.

Brian, I'm just awake, so going to digest your information now."

Jak is not doing what you are doing... He had none of those problems. I seriously doubt, nevermind, I am positive jack was not focusing on trying to uncock before he rolls. I agree that move is damaging to almost every golfer I have seen.

 

[brucifer]

Brian,

A tiny bit of a tone in your reply there I'm sensing.

I was only posing the question and looking to see if anyone else had encountered the same issues and knew of any underlying common causes.

As a TGM guy who attends all the conferences, I just mentioned, and not in any great detail, some of the concepts from that book that I had been struggling with.

I appreciate you taking the time to offer me the guidance and highlight some of the theory where I may have interpreted things incorrectly.

I intend to really focus on removing my mind from my wrists and hitting with the pivot.

But Ben Doyle (I have a DVD of his) did say you need to educate the hands first, which were the elements I was focusing on at this juncture.

How can I ensure that I am using my hands and wrists correctly without applying some thought to the movement they are supposed to make?

Perhaps if you have a natural swing, this all happens for you automatically, at this stage I don't, or the one I do have is flawed.

I have a lot of your DVDs Brian, which I have watched and enjoyed and picked up a lot from, but every now and then folks are gonna have tiny issues with parts of their swing that don't fit into the Manzella curriculum and I thought that was what this forum was for.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[brucifer]

"This is Jack doing essentially what I have been doing.

Brian, I'm just awake, so going to digest your information now."

Jak is not doing what you are doing... He had none of those problems. I seriously doubt, nevermind, I am positive jack was not focusing on trying to uncock before he rolls. I agree that move is damaging to almost every golfer I have seen.

Whether or not he was focusing on this, the result is that he has little angle between left forearm and shaft prior to impact and has lifted out of the swing a little, similar to myself.

This article, from which I got the Jack photos from,
http://www.the-efficient-golfer.com/yips.html

discusses 2 different types of golfers with examples.

B

 

[Brian Manzella]

A little straight talk from da Manz...

Brian,

A tiny bit of a tone in your reply there I'm sensing.

If you want some tone, read through all of your posts.

I was only posing the question and looking to see if anyone else had encountered the same issues and knew of any underlying common causes.

I thought the questions were very leading, and the Ben reference was kinda funny, but strange thing is, we don't hardly ever get questions like this.

My forum members have told to STAY AWAY from this bad idea.

As a TGM guy who attends all the conferences, I just mentioned, and not in any great detail, some of the concepts from that book that I had been struggling with.

Not a single "Bruce" on the AI list.

Do you have a real name?

I appreciate you taking the time to offer me the guidance and highlight some of the theory where I may have interpreted things incorrectly.

I think you know "the book" quite well.

The particular concept we discussed is just not a very good theory, in my opinion.

I intend to really focus on removing my mind from my wrists and hitting with the pivot.

Now, could you please re-read my post.

I emphatically stated I don't teach this concept, and don't like this concept.

But Ben Doyle (I have a DVD of his) did say you need to educate the hands first, which were the elements I was focusing on at this juncture.

That's Ben's theory.

I have my own, and to be honest, I do not "educate" the hands first anymore, in the TGM sense, anyway.

How can I ensure that I am using my hands and wrists correctly without applying some thought to the movement they are supposed to make?

Sounds like you are "reverse advertising" to me.

Surely you can read my post which gave 10 things that control low point, and the hands are always a big part of anything in the swing.

Perhaps if you have a natural swing, this all happens for you automatically, at this stage I don't, or the one I do have is flawed.

Ain't nuthin' natural about my golf swing.

But, again, your thinly veiled "reverse advertising" is annoying.

I have a lot of your DVDs Brian, which I have watched and enjoyed and picked up a lot from, but every now and then folks are gonna have tiny issues with parts of their swing that don't fit into the Manzella curriculum and I thought that was what this forum was for.

I have never seen anything that "doesn't fit in with the current Manzella Curriculum."

But when I do, I will rush to learn the solution, and include it in my teaching, writing, and videos.

This forum is about My Teaching, My Research, My Freinds and colleges that are Manzella Staff Instructors.

It is NOT a TGM forum.

I will answer TGM questions from time to time, because, well, I make sense out of things for normal folks who don't want 6-7b-7/3 type references.

The Golfing Machine is part of my golf education. So is my time with Ben Doyle.

But "Bruce," I am a big boy now, and at 47 folks get elected to be President of their country.

I have my own stuff, and I think it is second to none.

If you would like to continue learning from it, you will get smarter everyday.

I will never stop improving.

 

[brucifer]

If you want some tone, read through all of your posts.

I wasn't aware that I had a tone if I'm honest. Apologies if that was the perception.

I thought the questions were very leading, and the Ben reference was kinda funny, but strange thing is, we don't hardly ever get questions like this.

My forum members have told to STAY AWAY from this bad idea.

There was no leading questions IMO, just seeking answers.

Not a single "Bruce" on the AI list.

Do you have a real name?

I was referring to yourself, not I. That is my real name, I am simply an amateur golfer

I think you know "the book" quite well.

The particular concept we discussed is just not a very good theory, in my opinion.

Thats fair enough, now I know.

Now, could you please re-read my post.

I emphatically stated I don't teach this concept, and don't like this concept.

I will do.

That's Ben's theory.

I have my own, and to be honest, I do not "educate" the hands first anymore, in the TGM sense, anyway.

Fair enough

Sounds like you are "reverse advertising" to me.

Surely you can read my post which gave 10 things that control low point, and the hands are always a big part of anything in the swing.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea of "reverse advertising" from, I really have no ulterior motive here.

Ain't nuthin' natural about my golf swing.

But, again, your thinly veiled "reverse advertising" is annoying.

Its very thinly veiled as it doesn't exist.

I have never seen anything that "doesn't fit in with the current Manzella Curriculum."

But when I do, I will rush to learn the solution, and include it in my teaching, writing, and videos.

This was a specific question about one particular area that I was looking an answer to.

I have looked at the videos, and I have still encountered this problem, and I thought I would post the question on this forum so I could get some thoughts on it.

This forum is about My Teaching, My Research, My Freinds and colleges that are Manzella Staff Instructors.

It is NOT a TGM forum.

I will answer TGM questions from time to time, because, well, I make sense out of things for normal folks who don't want 6-7b-7/3 type references.

The Golfing Machine is part of my golf education. So is my time with Ben Doyle.

This wasn't a TGM question, the question was what am I doing wrong.
I used TGM to illustrate some of the concepts succinctly, as, if nothing else, it does provide a decent enough common vocab we can use.

I don't want references, I just want to swing the club better and become a single figure golfer.

But "Bruce," I am a big boy now, and at 47 folks get elected to be President of their country.

I have my own stuff, and I think it is second to none.

If you would like to continue learning from it, you will get smarter everyday.

I will never stop improving.

I did enjoy coming to this forum and reading and learning, buying your videos and trying to improve my golf with the simple laymans terms instruction.

I like to question things and I thought a previous debate that was had on 'shanking' to be very beneficial.

I am definitely not an expert, and find debate brings clarity.


You could ask me if I had an ulterior motive or some goal and we could've saved a lot of words, the answer is No, I don't.

Bruce

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I really have no ulterior motive here.

You could ask me if I had an ulterior motive

Not once, but twice. If that was an accident...wow