Tour Short game action/release question for Brian (and anyone)

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welshdentist

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Having finally got rid of chipping yips after 3 years of terror/mental anguish and I have a question for the forum about the right wrist role.

TGM "ideal" action actually caused me the yips to a certain extent as in my goal to stop flipping (which I am not sure I ever did originally) it robbed me of all height with my short pitch and chip shots.

I actually UNDERSTAND that tour players release their right wrist, as Brian showed in the short game friends video.

MY QUESTION IS

If we hit a "standard TGM, flat left wrist, bent right wrist, compressed,hot/low/spinning shot" as 10 yards shot number 1 and called it one end of the matrix (?most shaft lean?)

WOULD

Allowing the right wrist to straighten MORE through the ball, but still trying to hit it 10 yards, result in a higher, softer(less spinning) shot each time swinging a little longer to compensate for the higher trajectory (?less shaft lean?)

MEANING

That there is a TGM end of the matrix(?leading edge pitch/chip), with the lowest trajectory leading to the opposite end (true swinging/mid sole/back of mid sole)) which produces high lob shots with barely any spin?


All of these shots above hit from the same set up and stance

Please ignore if you have no idea what I am talking about, it;s taking a lot of time to get my head around true TGM not being the be all and end all.

Is this "kinda" like Brian's Short game Matrix concept?
 
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dlam

New
Welshdentist,

I read about TGM past 6 months, watched Brian's CoFF last week. Last year I bought Michelson's Short game DVD, and read Utley's Art of the short game.
My short game is much better today than it was before I came across all these materials.

I do not understand what you are talking about but you put a great of thought INTO the pitch/chip shot.

Good luck

Been there done that,
dont want to do it again.
 
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savydan

New
I think you're right. You can keep the bend in the right wrist for a lower, more spinning shot. Or let it release for more of a floater.

Letting the wrist release through impact is not one of the 400 trillion options in TGM?
 
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rogerdodger

New
Releasing the right wrist is in the golfing machine, I do not have the book with me, but it is a valid technique in the short game. I have actually had a lot of success with float loading in order to increase the height on short pitches. I also have been struggling with the high pitch. Also, one method Brian shared with me that is golden is hitting the ball purposely off the toe of the wedge. Ball lands soft and dead. It has been a great method on short pitches.
 
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daz

New
ball position

Why would you not just move the ball further towards low point to achieve less shaft lean rather than utilising throwaway. ? surely easier to hold the left wrist flat than to time a flip?
 
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welshdentist

New
As that isn't what a lot of tour pros do....

Although it would seem that some TGM circles say that tour pros don't know what they are doing wrong ;)

I seriously think a flip is a different action altogether. A flip to me is an uncontrolled flick at the ball to try to save a shot.

Throwaway I would agree with as a definition as allowing the right wrist to straighten takes power out deliberately and gives a soft, high, but low spin flight.

The straightening of the right arm, holding a bent right wrist has value for certain shots.

I think it helps if anyone reading this saw the short game friends video. Brian explains why a COAFF type chip/pitch is not always a good thing, and what shot the tour guys hit a lot of the time.

TGM is a good description, but as a method it has it's flaws as does any "method"

By a standard stock TGM shot I meant a flat left wrist/bent right wrist. I realise it's not what the book describes as the only shot, but what many TGM instructors say has to be used, not all but some do....

I suppose what I am trying to say is that a FLW is not essential for the short game, and that there are two ends of the short game, from a lob to a low checking shot

Would appreciate any of the certified instructors chiming in as I know what i've described is quite TGM/Manzella language orientated, sorry about that.....


Cheers
 
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welshdentist

New
daz said:
Why would you not just move the ball further towards low point to achieve less shaft lean rather than utilising throwaway. ? surely easier to hold the left wrist flat than to time a flip?
Click to expand...


Or easier to time a flip from a consistent ball position that have to move it around low point (which can move for many different reasons)?

It's the other side of the view. Consistent ball position and body with a feel for what height/throaway is needed, or guess where low point is.

Two very valid methods.

What do most tour pros do?

I have personally found that FLW chipping leads to move of a stab/agressive move through the ball and had low point issues.
 
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birly-shirly

New
So, is the flop shot that Brian demonstrates in the video a flip or not? And if not, why not?

As far as I can make out, he's talking about a vertical or even backward leaning shaft at impact - which surely requires a bent left wrist. And I thought that a bent left wrist at impact was how most people would define a flip.

Surely something's got to give here. In my opinion, we're tying ourselves in semantic knots to avoid acknowledging that a bent left wrist isn't golfing kryponite.
 
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softconsult

New
My thought, when I read this thread is paralysis by analysis and no mention of feel.

I believe that if I had access to a forum like this when I was 14, I would
have never learned to chip or pitch. Back then it was, try it look at the result.
Want to hit it lower roll face down. Want a little hook spin? Hit it from inside
with a little roll and then adjust according to the results. Flop it (we didn't have a name),
lay it open and swing outside-in. Not a bad approach, in my opinion.
 
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daz

New
confessions

Kevin Shields said:
Releasing the right wrist is not a flip, period.
Click to expand...

By releasing do you mean flattening the right wrist (bending the left)?

That's how Brian describes flipping it in confessions of a former flipper which he still sells.
 
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eoscar

New member
In my estimation you can straighten your right wrist to a flat left wrist or through a flat left wrist causing the left wrist to cup. If your right wrist straigtens through a flat left wrist prior to impact causing a break down of the left wrist and negative shaft lean its a flip. If the straigtening of the right wrist is no further than to the point where the left wrist can remain flat or if the cupping of the left wrist occurs post impact its not a true flip. Not sure if that is correct, but it has been my interpretation.
 
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tallathlete

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It's obvious the topic and concept of intentionally throwing away the right wrist angle in short shots is very confusuing to some golfers. Without question a FLW and shaft lean is a requirement in full shots from tee to green. However, in short shots such as pitches, cuts, lobs, explosions, etc....this is simply not true. Off the top of my head, we want a FLW for these reasons:
1. To control trajectory
2. To retain power and keep power leakage from occuring
3. To facilitate hitting down and thru the golf ball
4. To facilitate controlling lowpoint for crisp consistent contact
5. To facilitate control of the club face thru impact...ie a stable club face.

All this being said, how does it all relate to a high cut lob over a bunker to a tight pin? Do we need to CONTROL trajectory? No. We need to let it all go and send it as high as possible. Do we need to retain power? No. This is a finesse shot that requires surgical touch....not power per se. Do we need to precisely control lowpoint on this shot? No. Oftentimes we can and should hit 1/2" to 1 full inch or more BEHIND the ball to introduce bounce and to hit the ball with a maximally lofted face. Do we need to control the clubface on this shot? Yes....but not remotely to the degree of a full golf shot. These short shots are lazy free flowing shots....face control should NOT be an issue.

Hopefully I have helped some of you guys realize why the impact "rules" simply do not always apply in the short game. We all hear FLW and forward shaft lean so much that it can hurt us in short shots. I heard a saying from a very good teacher once...."shaft lean killed the short game star". I surely agree with it.
 
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tallathlete

New
Further, when Kevin stated that releasing the right wrist....even to the point of backing up the shaft....is not a flip he was absolutely correct. In short feel shots, negeative lean is often called for and required.
 
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tallathlete

New
This is me hitting a 60* wedge with 10* of bounce off a TIGHT lie. The flag was only 15-17 feet away. This shot threw the ball probably 15 feet or so into the air. This shot can't be done with straight arms and bent right wrist with flying wedge fully intact. I had intentional throw away..........

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjIWCHoIRRM[/media]
 
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dannyc

New
over and out

he also talks about using throwaway in the short game in "over and out"
daz said:
By releasing do you mean flattening the right wrist (bending the left)?

That's how Brian describes flipping it in confessions of a former flipper which he still sells.
Click to expand...
 
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eoscar

New member
tallathlete said:
This is me hitting a 60* wedge with 10* of bounce off a TIGHT lie. The flag was only 15-17 feet away. This shot threw the ball probably 15 feet or so into the air. This shot can't be done with straight arms and bent right wrist with flying wedge fully intact. I had intentional throw away..........

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjIWCHoIRRM[/media]
Click to expand...

Agreed. In the short game intentional, controlled throw away is a necessity for many shots (Even to the point where if it were a full swing it could be described as a flip).
 
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