TPI Good or Bad?
- Thread starter hitman119
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mjstrong
New
I would hope that you can "expect" whatever you're looking for.
I have been a TPI certified golf pro (so filter out whatever bias you deem appropriate) for just over a year now, and try to customize my programs to the student. Some students want to walk away from their physical assessment with an entire fitness program designed, but some admit that they don't want to do much in the gym. I will not sell a series of lessons to any of my members without running them through the physical screening process, even if they don't want stretches and exercises (most do, however), simply because it gives me a "physical blueprint" of what their body can and can't do.
I have a lot of thoughts on the program itself, feel free to PM or email me with any questions you might have (this goes for anybody).
Mark Strong, CPGA, TPI CGFI
Vancouver Golf Club
mstrong@vancouvergolfclub.com
I have been a TPI certified golf pro (so filter out whatever bias you deem appropriate) for just over a year now, and try to customize my programs to the student. Some students want to walk away from their physical assessment with an entire fitness program designed, but some admit that they don't want to do much in the gym. I will not sell a series of lessons to any of my members without running them through the physical screening process, even if they don't want stretches and exercises (most do, however), simply because it gives me a "physical blueprint" of what their body can and can't do.
I have a lot of thoughts on the program itself, feel free to PM or email me with any questions you might have (this goes for anybody).
Mark Strong, CPGA, TPI CGFI
Vancouver Golf Club
mstrong@vancouvergolfclub.com
jeffgladchun
New
At least from an instruction standpoint,
I know that Brian isn't a big fan.
I know that Brian isn't a big fan.
While I wouldn't presume to speak for Brian, I don't think he is against increasing fitness in an effort to play better golf. Far from it, I think he believes that increasing your fitness can only serve to improve your game and the TPI guys are great at that.
Where I think he diverges from TPI is in its belief that certain swing issues are inevitably the result of certain physical limitations, i.e. a TPI guy may say that "chicken winging" is caused by a lack of lead arm strength where Brian may look at clubface issues first.
Perhaps the oracle, himself, may weigh in on this issue?
Where I think he diverges from TPI is in its belief that certain swing issues are inevitably the result of certain physical limitations, i.e. a TPI guy may say that "chicken winging" is caused by a lack of lead arm strength where Brian may look at clubface issues first.
Perhaps the oracle, himself, may weigh in on this issue?
Richie3Jack
New
I've never tried it. I've got a childhood friend who is now the head trainer there over at the corporate headquarters just outside of San Diego, so I do have some bias to it.
I had another friend who got into it with an extreme amount of dedication and said within six months he went from a 12 handicap to a 5 and added about 2 clubs with his irons.
But, I can see some issues with it, much like I see issues with some clubfitters. Like the golfer who keeps hitting the ball towards the toe the clubfitter will tell them they need the clubs more upright, but in reality they need to fix some issues with their golf swing. So I wouldn't put it past many TPI guys to not really know enough about the golf swing and thus assigning the blame to physical issues instead of say a flawed grip.
3JACK
I had another friend who got into it with an extreme amount of dedication and said within six months he went from a 12 handicap to a 5 and added about 2 clubs with his irons.
But, I can see some issues with it, much like I see issues with some clubfitters. Like the golfer who keeps hitting the ball towards the toe the clubfitter will tell them they need the clubs more upright, but in reality they need to fix some issues with their golf swing. So I wouldn't put it past many TPI guys to not really know enough about the golf swing and thus assigning the blame to physical issues instead of say a flawed grip.
3JACK
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
All I know is entire body work is the best IMO. Also, if you go to work on one specific area of the body for flexibility or strength (or lack thereof), it better have a one to one ratio to the ball flight issue or it can play havoc with your swing. Its like if you make two errors in the swing and correct only one.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Brian Manzella's Opinion of TPI and other "Golf Training" systems
edited version of a post from a similar thread...
I have always thought that golfers should train like real athletes, and that one day, the tour would have a bunch of guys that look more like Guy McGinnis—a guy I grew up with that played major college basketball with Joe Dumars—then there would be guys looking like Bob Murphy.
I played 5A high school football, and trained 356 days a year. I ran so many stadium steps, that I could run them almost as fast as I could a simple incline. I was so good at all the tire drills, that they had to let me go first all the time or I would run over the guy in front of me.
Oh, and I played golf on the golf team, and with the worst technique of all time, would up with a college scholarship.
We had a "training" program at UNO, but the only thing that tested me a lick was running 40 yard dashes on a curve against the track guys.
By the time I was 24, I was 20 pounds heavier than I was at Free Safety, a couple of tenths of a second slower in the 49, and a lot better golfer, because I had researched the heck out of the swing and taught myself to play better.
But my body sucked.
I told my pal Todd Nunez in early 1987 that I was going to get in world-class shape and go see Ben Doyle and see if I could hit it a bunch better.
He laughed and said "good shape" would be just fine.
I disagreed.
Now "world-class" shape I wasn't, by August of 1987, I was down to 151 pounds, 5-8 percent body fat, could bench press 30 more pounds, and did a full body workout four days a week.
Oh, I almost forgot...I played 10 hours of Basketball a week, walked 108 holes a week, played football twice a week for about 6 hours, and went out and danced a couple of night a week.
I had gone to see Ben, and besides looking like a totally different golfer, I swung like a real golfer as well. If I'd have known about the D-Plane, and understood the 9 shots of the Manzella Matrix Short Game, I would have been pretty good.
As it was, I was light years better than I had ever been.
<!-- START FreeVideoCoding.com -->
<EMBED height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=425 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/p8aT8wInXN8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0 allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>
Being in big-time shape, with strength and flexibility is HUGE in golf.
So, what do I think of TPI?
When someone stands up at a PGA Teaching Summit, and says that folks coming over the top because of their bodies, when I have seen those type folks get fixed in 20 minutes on my lesson tee, I have to be a bit lukewarm on what they stand for.
My personal belief is this:
After talking to some renown people on the subject, my recommendation is to train the WHOLE BODY. If a zenolink or TPI trainer will do it, great.
I am very apprehensive about recommending "spot" training. And I am not saying any of these "methodologies" suggest spot training either. I just think whole body is better.
And I can fix folks without them having to be in shape.
And I am not saying it wouldn't be easier if they were in better shape.
I am saying I evaluate folks WHILE I AM FIXING THEM. that is a big part of teaching....figuring out what THAT PERSON in front of you can and can't do, and teaching around their limitattions.
But I want to go on record as saying, I think anyone wanting to play their best golf, should go find a top notch athletic trainer, and train their whole body hard.
edited version of a post from a similar thread...
I have always thought that golfers should train like real athletes, and that one day, the tour would have a bunch of guys that look more like Guy McGinnis—a guy I grew up with that played major college basketball with Joe Dumars—then there would be guys looking like Bob Murphy.
I played 5A high school football, and trained 356 days a year. I ran so many stadium steps, that I could run them almost as fast as I could a simple incline. I was so good at all the tire drills, that they had to let me go first all the time or I would run over the guy in front of me.
Oh, and I played golf on the golf team, and with the worst technique of all time, would up with a college scholarship.
We had a "training" program at UNO, but the only thing that tested me a lick was running 40 yard dashes on a curve against the track guys.
By the time I was 24, I was 20 pounds heavier than I was at Free Safety, a couple of tenths of a second slower in the 49, and a lot better golfer, because I had researched the heck out of the swing and taught myself to play better.
But my body sucked.
I told my pal Todd Nunez in early 1987 that I was going to get in world-class shape and go see Ben Doyle and see if I could hit it a bunch better.
He laughed and said "good shape" would be just fine.
I disagreed.
Now "world-class" shape I wasn't, by August of 1987, I was down to 151 pounds, 5-8 percent body fat, could bench press 30 more pounds, and did a full body workout four days a week.
Oh, I almost forgot...I played 10 hours of Basketball a week, walked 108 holes a week, played football twice a week for about 6 hours, and went out and danced a couple of night a week.
I had gone to see Ben, and besides looking like a totally different golfer, I swung like a real golfer as well. If I'd have known about the D-Plane, and understood the 9 shots of the Manzella Matrix Short Game, I would have been pretty good.
As it was, I was light years better than I had ever been.
<!-- START FreeVideoCoding.com -->
<EMBED height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=425 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/p8aT8wInXN8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0 allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>
Being in big-time shape, with strength and flexibility is HUGE in golf.
So, what do I think of TPI?
When someone stands up at a PGA Teaching Summit, and says that folks coming over the top because of their bodies, when I have seen those type folks get fixed in 20 minutes on my lesson tee, I have to be a bit lukewarm on what they stand for.
My personal belief is this:
After talking to some renown people on the subject, my recommendation is to train the WHOLE BODY. If a zenolink or TPI trainer will do it, great.
I am very apprehensive about recommending "spot" training. And I am not saying any of these "methodologies" suggest spot training either. I just think whole body is better.
And I can fix folks without them having to be in shape.
And I am not saying it wouldn't be easier if they were in better shape.
I am saying I evaluate folks WHILE I AM FIXING THEM. that is a big part of teaching....figuring out what THAT PERSON in front of you can and can't do, and teaching around their limitattions.
But I want to go on record as saying, I think anyone wanting to play their best golf, should go find a top notch athletic trainer, and train their whole body hard.
ZAP
New
I had never seen that video of your swing before. Cool.
I have to totally agree with you on the fitness part. Seems to me the TPI guys I have spoken with seems to be very spot training oriented. Golf is a total body activity and needs to be approached as such. Besides....it is easier to control something you are in tune with and physically challenge on a regular basis.
I have to totally agree with you on the fitness part. Seems to me the TPI guys I have spoken with seems to be very spot training oriented. Golf is a total body activity and needs to be approached as such. Besides....it is easier to control something you are in tune with and physically challenge on a regular basis.
I have to say that I agree fitness helps - a lot. As a teenager, I was on the fringes of the GB squad for rowing, and rowed for UK universities B squad while at University. I trained 8/9 times a week, could do a 'Sam Snead' (ie kick a ceiling from a standing start), run 5 miles in under 25 minutes and bench press 240lbs easily. I only played golf occasionally (and new very little about the swing) but could shoot 85 round most courses most days.
Fast forward 7 years. Family, career, 30lbs heavier, little regular exercise; lots more knowledge of the golf swing, regular lessons (albeit from someone who, from what I've learned on here, doesn't know what a real swing is). Result: scoring the same old 85.
Late last summer, I started working on Soft Draw. My scores fell to an average of 81/82, with a few high 70's thrown in. Then, at the insistence of my wife, I started getting in shape, and doing 3/4 watered down versions of my old rowing training sessions a week. In 2 months, I'd lost almost 20 pounds, and was fitter and more flexible than I'd been in 20 years. And my scoring fell to 78/79 average, with a low of 73, despite working on my swing less.
So I whole-heartedly agree that fitness really helps.
Fast forward 7 years. Family, career, 30lbs heavier, little regular exercise; lots more knowledge of the golf swing, regular lessons (albeit from someone who, from what I've learned on here, doesn't know what a real swing is). Result: scoring the same old 85.
Late last summer, I started working on Soft Draw. My scores fell to an average of 81/82, with a few high 70's thrown in. Then, at the insistence of my wife, I started getting in shape, and doing 3/4 watered down versions of my old rowing training sessions a week. In 2 months, I'd lost almost 20 pounds, and was fitter and more flexible than I'd been in 20 years. And my scoring fell to 78/79 average, with a low of 73, despite working on my swing less.
So I whole-heartedly agree that fitness really helps.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
TPI, IMO is over rated. Most of the stuff they teach, you get by doing a gymnastics class, especially when you are dealing with kids.
Yeah, I agree fitness is not the end all be all in golf. I was just curious of what they will tell me. I had a evaluation today and we measured some of my flexibility and stability issues. It made sense, but I'm not big on setting up like Adam Scott (just my preference). I'm interested to see if it helps. I'm always up on learning new things.
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Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
So, what do I think of TPI?
When someone stands up at a PGA Teaching Summit, and says that folks coming over the top because of their bodies, when I have seen those type folks get fixed in 20 minutes on my lesson tee, I have to be a bit lukewarm on what they stand for.
This presentation at the 2008 PGA Teaching Summit was an insult to our intelligence as instructors.
When someone stands up at a PGA Teaching Summit, and says that folks coming over the top because of their bodies, when I have seen those type folks get fixed in 20 minutes on my lesson tee, I have to be a bit lukewarm on what they stand for.
This presentation at the 2008 PGA Teaching Summit was an insult to our intelligence as instructors.
cmartingolf
New
I'm all for fitness, strength and flexability, but PA-Lease. Fix-em. Don't tell them they have "weak abs" and "tight hams." Duh. I can show you great athletes that can't "use the club like a club" (to quote some Italian) at any speed and fat old men that can really play.
Work out...it will do a body good.
Work out...it will do a body good.
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mjstrong
New
Here's my opinion. You have good players that might not have good "golf" physical abilities. You have bad players that could have great "golf" physical abilities.
To excel in swinging a golf club, you need to have a minimum level of mobility and strength in key areas. You also need to have the coordination and "know how to swing." To swing at the highest level, you need both.
You can teach a person to overcome some swing faults without trying to change their body's capabilities, but you can also overcome those same swing faults with the help of stretches and exercises that will make the changes easier and have more staying power.
There are some moves in the golf swing that some people just can't do. We talk about the hips being open at impact in the golf swing for power - there are a lot of high handicap golfers that simply can't open their hips relative to their upper body. It will be much tougher for them to generate the same kind of power than for somebody who can.
Maybe TPI's claim of body-causation is too strong for some on here, and I don't disagree. But if a teacher is ignoring what a student's body's physical capabilities are...seems like extra information that could be pretty valuable.
To excel in swinging a golf club, you need to have a minimum level of mobility and strength in key areas. You also need to have the coordination and "know how to swing." To swing at the highest level, you need both.
You can teach a person to overcome some swing faults without trying to change their body's capabilities, but you can also overcome those same swing faults with the help of stretches and exercises that will make the changes easier and have more staying power.
There are some moves in the golf swing that some people just can't do. We talk about the hips being open at impact in the golf swing for power - there are a lot of high handicap golfers that simply can't open their hips relative to their upper body. It will be much tougher for them to generate the same kind of power than for somebody who can.
Maybe TPI's claim of body-causation is too strong for some on here, and I don't disagree. But if a teacher is ignoring what a student's body's physical capabilities are...seems like extra information that could be pretty valuable.
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