Trackman / PGA data

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BertramSterling

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I have a trackman question :)

There is some data around from 2009 that includes averages of PGA players on trackman. The driver stats are:

Angle of Attack : -1.3 deg
Vertical Launch : 11.2 deg

A Trackman newsletter states that the launch angle for a driver is 85% dynamic loft, 15% attack angle:

Vertical Launch = (Dynamic loft * 0.85) + (Attack angle * 0.15)
11.2 = (Dynamic loft * 0.85) + (-1.3 * 0.15)

Since the dynamic loft isn't given, and I am curious:

Dynamic loft = [Vertical Launch - (Attack angle * 0.15)] / 0.85
Dynamic loft = [11.2 - (-1.3 * 0.15)] / 0.85
Dynamic loft = 13.4 deg

13.4 degrees of delivered loft with the driver, whilst hitting down? Aren't they all playing 8.5 and 9.5 degree drivers?

Can someone correct my math, or clue me up on trackman data, because the videos I see have something of a forward leaning shaft :confused:
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

New
BertramSterling said:
I have a trackman question :)

There is some data around from 2009 that includes averages of PGA players on trackman. The driver stats are:

Angle of Attack : -1.3 deg
Vertical Launch : 11.2 deg

A Trackman newsletter states that the launch angle for a driver is 85% dynamic loft, 15% attack angle:

Vertical Launch = (Dynamic loft * 0.85) + (Attack angle * 0.15)
11.2 = (Dynamic loft * 0.85) + (-1.3 * 0.15)

Since the dynamic loft isn't given, and I am curious:

Dynamic loft = [Vertical Launch - (Attack angle * 0.15)] / 0.85
Dynamic loft = [11.2 - (-1.3 * 0.15)] / 0.85
Dynamic loft = 13.4 deg

13.4 degrees of delivered loft with the driver, whilst hitting down? Aren't they all playing 8.5 and 9.5 degree drivers?

Can someone correct my math, or clue me up on trackman data, because the videos I see have something of a forward leaning shaft :confused:
Click to expand...

There are plenty of Tour pros using 10* and 10.5* drivers. Plus, hitting down doesn't necessarily equate to lowering the dynamic loft.






3JACK
 
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BertramSterling

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Richie3Jack said:
There are plenty of Tour pros using 10* and 10.5* drivers. Plus, hitting down doesn't necessarily equate to lowering the dynamic loft.
Click to expand...


Thats the part I don't understand - hitting down with a forward leaning shaft and increasing the loft..

Axis tilt & forward ball position? Thats all I can think of..
 
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birly-shirly

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As above - plus impact above the clubhead CoG will raise launch angle somewhat - don't ask me how much. Though I believe that, for a given distance from the sweet spot, the effect of high and low hits is more dramatic than heel and toe strikes.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
BertramSterling said:
13.4 degrees of delivered loft with the driver, whilst hitting down? Aren't they all playing 8.5 and 9.5 degree drivers?
Click to expand...

Nope, the ones who "Hit up" are but there are plenty of guys playing higher lofted drivers because of the very reason you mention. There was a piece in the trackman newsletters about a euro player learning to use trackman to his advantage and went from like 10.5* hitting down motion with a soft tip shaft to like a 8.5* hitting up version with a much stiffer shaft and gained like 30 yards.

Pros, on average, still like to hit down.
 
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BIGBALL

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Nope, the ones who "Hit up" are but there are plenty of guys playing higher lofted drivers because of the very reason you mention. There was a piece in the trackman newsletters about a euro player learning to use trackman to his advantage and went from like 10.5* hitting down motion with a soft tip shaft to like a 8.5* hitting up version with a much stiffer shaft and gained like 30 yards.

Pros, on average, still like to hit down.
Click to expand...

This leads me to a thought / observation. I know, being a higher handicapper compared to most on this board, that it seems like I can never have a good driving day with a good iron day. I do hit up on the driver. Would this maybe be why some pros still hit down on their driver? It seems like hitting up on the driver is basically a totally different swing? Maybe they worry about inconsistency?
 
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cwdlaw223

New
Why do pros want to hit down with their driver? I know that I hit down with my driver. Best driving year EVER. Went to a 43.5" shaft (D-1 swingweight - hotmelt in the driver head) and probably have a -4 AoA average with my driver. I love to aim right and hit a hard draw back into the fairway. That's how my mind is most comfortable under pressure. I can hit any shot I want on the range, but what counts is what I can bring to the course under pressure. I can still drive the ball plenty far and will take accuracy over distance.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Nope, the ones who "Hit up" are but there are plenty of guys playing higher lofted drivers because of the very reason you mention. There was a piece in the trackman newsletters about a euro player learning to use trackman to his advantage and went from like 10.5* hitting down motion with a soft tip shaft to like a 8.5* hitting up version with a much stiffer shaft and gained like 30 yards.

Pros, on average, still like to hit down.
Click to expand...

That was Kevin Streelman.

In the July 2009 Trackman Newsletter he got on Trackman and found he was hitting -5* down. He was using a Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS, 10.5* loft with a Diamana Blue Board 73X shaft. Ball speed was 166 mph, with a 1.43 smash factor and a carry of 267 yards.

He claims he figured out how to hit up on the driver, although when they measured him a year later, he was still hitting down. Albeit...only -1* down. He changed his driver to a Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS with 8.5* loft and a Miyazaki 72X shaft. Some of his other shafts as he was going thru the changes were being tipped as well. His balls speed went up to 170 mph (from 166) and his Smash Factor went to 1.49 (from 1.43) and his carry was 290 yards (from 267).

Dramatic changes.








3JACK
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

New
Frans@France said:
You also might find it suprising that most pros just can't hit up with the driver even if they really want to.
Click to expand...

Yeah, although I don't find much wrong with having say a 0 to -1* AoA.

I think it has a lot to do with the flight of the ball and what one feels like they can control. If you're generating say, 112.5 mph of clubhead speed (about the PGA Tour average) and you keep it between 0 to -1* because that's the window you feel you can control...you can still hit it about 290-310 yards on Tour courses. If your longest par-4's are say...460 yards...that's leaving you with about 150-170 yards. And with that clubhead speed, that could mean you could have as short as a PW into the green. An extra 20 yards is helpful, but it's tough to fault a guy for not wanting to hit up if he can find the fairway more often and still have driver-9-iron into a 460 yard par-4.





3JACK
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

New
natep said:
Shaft is in lead deflection at impact. Probably adds loft.
Click to expand...

Correct, max 2 degree if you following the findings of the clubfitters. More then 6 degree if you following the findings in that long thread where I got the "dude" reply and some other nice remarks by Jacobs :mad:

And as birly-shirly stated in his reply if the head is in lead position the cog of the head becomes lower creating a slightly higher launch angle.

Still looking/searching for the complete math to calculate the Launch angle based on the positions of the cog off both ball and head.
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

New
Richie3Jack said:
Yeah, although I don't find much wrong with having say a 0 to -1* AoA.
..... If you're generating say, 112.5 mph of clubhead speed (about the PGA Tour average) and you keep it between 0 to -1* because that's the window you feel you can control........
Click to expand...

correct, but only IF you can swing it that fast and that average means that there are a lot of pro's also slower. They either have to find more speed or a better (read more positive) angle of attack to max out on their theoretical driving limit.

From the (limited) range time I had with some of them I was suprised to see that generating more speed and keep in under control or changing the Angle of attack was a serious challenge. However that was during the golf season and such a change would better take place after or before the season starts again :)
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

New
Frans@France said:
correct, but only IF you can swing it that fast and that average means that there are a lot of pro's also slower. They either have to find more speed or a better (read more positive) angle of attack to max out on their theoretical driving limit.

From the (limited) range time I had with some of them I was suprised to see that generating more speed and keep in under control or changing the Angle of attack was a serious challenge. However that was during the golf season and such a change would better take place after or before the season starts again :)
Click to expand...

FWIW, the golfer that led my Advanced Total Driving statistic this year was John Merrick, who averages 110 mph clubhead speed. But, he still hits it at 297 yards.

The worst was Chad Collins at 109 mph who was hitting it an average of 273 yards. I think it was pretty obvious that Collins hits down on the ball and Merrick hits up by judging their other radar stats.

So yeah, you can be below the Tour average and hit the driver extremely well and long.





3JACK
 
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Billy McKinney

New
Does Trackman take into account the way the club head is driven downward because of the collision?
Or does it accurately measure the AoA just before impact?

Bill McKinney, PGA
Marbella CC
 
M

mb6606

New
Richie3Jack said:
That was Kevin Streelman.

In the July 2009 Trackman Newsletter he got on Trackman and found he was hitting -5* down. He was using a Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS, 10.5* loft with a Diamana Blue Board 73X shaft. Ball speed was 166 mph, with a 1.43 smash factor and a carry of 267 yards.

He claims he figured out how to hit up on the driver, although when they measured him a year later, he was still hitting down. Albeit...only -1* down. He changed his driver to a Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS with 8.5* loft and a Miyazaki 72X shaft. Some of his other shafts as he was going thru the changes were being tipped as well. His balls speed went up to 170 mph (from 166) and his Smash Factor went to 1.49 (from 1.43) and his carry was 290 yards (from 267).

Dramatic changes.
3JACK
Click to expand...

I watched a lot of guys on the range in Norton in Sept. and Streelman's driver ball flight was the one that really stood out. He hit the ball high but with minimal spin it appeared to be the ideal ball flight for carry and roll. Now I know why thanks.
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

New
swingfitgolftribe said:
Does Trackman take into account the way the club head is driven downward because of the collision?
Or does it accurately measure the AoA just before impact?

Bill McKinney, PGA
Marbella CC
Click to expand...

this is an assumption and you should probably ask tuxen in person on long island (1-2-3-4).....but i'm assuming that trackman is back calculating the actual flight and is giving you face, path numbers at the point of max deformation ala aaron zick.....again, just a guess....so the club has been wobbled to some degree when the trackman numbers are spit out.....i could definitely be wrong - but that's why you should fly out - we would love to have you there again, billy
 
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Billy McKinney

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thanks, mike. hardesty is flying into california today to stay. i'll pick his brain about it too. if i can get the time off, i'll definitely be there again.
 
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