Trusting Centrifugal Force

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wanole

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If I want to swing with lettin CF move my hands through my pivot, how do I make sure I don't block my arms with my hips? Is that set up with the proper takeaway?

I have seen to drop the hands then start the hips, but looking at Mike's swing it looks like hips first.

I want to take my hands out as much as possible because I have learned it just doesn't hold up under pressure. I am hoping to work the pivot and let CF take over without any force from the hands.

Is this doable and is it a dynamic way to swing?
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
parallel hip slide versus a cross line motion...also just because you want to learn how to do it, doesn't mean it is going to be any easier.
 
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wanole

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quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

parallel hip slide versus a cross line motion...also just because you want to learn how to do it, doesn't mean it is going to be any easier.
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Where did I say it would be easier?

I feel that controlling your big muscle holds up better under pressure than your small ones. ie. hands. (at least for me).

I want my swivel to be natural and not forced. As Brian can attest I manipulate my hands at impact and this creates a bent left wrist. This IMO was all ingrained from my arms getting caught behind my hips on the way down so my hands had to be manipulated to get to the ball.

I am trying to get this manipulation out and working on horizontal hinging to help get rid of the chicken winging and create more compression. I have seen that this should happen naturally with CF and wish for HH to occur naturally than me manually creating it.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by wanole



I feel that controlling your big muscle holds up better under pressure than your small ones. ie. hands. (at least for me).
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This is another piece of golfing folklore I have trouble buying and I'm not sure how it got started. Think off practically any other physical activity performed under pressure (well, not that one...) and, almost without exception, the motion is controlled by the hands, not the big muscles. For example, what is more difficult than throwing strikes at 90+ miles per hour in a save situation? I don't see Mariano Rivera throwing with his big muscles: obviously they synchronize very well with the throwing motion but I'd be shocked if his focus isn't 90% in his right hand. Same with surgeons (they don't move the scapel with their back muscles), dentists, magicians, sharp shooters, billiard champs, tennis, ping pong, squash...

Sure, many players rotate their torsos (i.e., TGM swingers, Hardy one-plane swingers) so the hands are relatively passive, but I believe you can play perfectly good golf propelling the club with your arms and hands (i.e., TGM hitters, Hardy "two-plane" swingers). Anyone agree with me?
 
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Bigwill

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quote:Originally posted by jeffy


This is another piece of golfing folklore I have trouble buying and I'm not sure how it got started. Think off practically any other physical activity performed under pressure (well, not that one...) and, almost without exception, the motion is controlled by the hands, not the big muscles. For example, what is more difficult than throwing strikes at 90+ miles per hour in a save situation? I don't see Mariano Rivera throwing with his big muscles: obviously they synchronize very well with the throwing motion but I'd be shocked if his focus isn't 90% in his right hand. Same with surgeons (they don't move the scapel with their back muscles), dentists, magicians, sharp shooters, billiard champs, tennis, ping pong, squash...

Sure, many players rotate their torsos (i.e., TGM swingers, Hardy one-plane swingers) so the hands are relatively passive, but I believe you can play perfectly good golf propelling the club with your arms and hands (i.e., TGM hitters, Hardy "two-plane" swingers). Anyone agree with me?
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I think it's more a perception thing. For example, I've had a very active lower body since I've started playing. In order to get everything matched up, I try to feel like I'm focusing more on my arms than my lower body. But it dosen't mean that my lower body isn't involved. I just have to feel that my arms are doing most of the work. But I always end up with my hips cleared and standing on my left foot. It's the same thing in the opposite situation. I think that it has more to do with getting everything working in the proper sequence, and different people have to focus on different areas in order to make that happen.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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I think he's talking about manipulating the hands to time them for impact instead of trusting CF to square them. I'm not sure how this applies to hitting as I'm not a hitter...obviously there is nothing wrong with hitting though...Ted Fort could prolly kick my arse on a golf course.

You're right that a pitcher is only focusing on the right hand but look at what's happening there...he plants his lead leg and basically fires his arm (and essentially his entire right side) around that left leg...his hips fire, then his shoulders, then his arm...his hand comes last. Sure the hand is what he's aware of and what's driving the whole movement but his arm is still firing around that braced left side...with centrifugal force (not sure if that's absolutely scientifically right or w/e...some people have said that CF is ficticious or w/e...you knwow hat I mean though).

I like to feel that my torso is merely a rotating drum with my arms connected (I like to envision them as chains). That doesn't mean that I am taking the club back with my body...my right hand pulls my left arm taught (extensor action) which pulls my left shoulder and turns the torso (drum). My legs are merely supporting the whole motion. Mike's swing (mikestloc) really is a good model for me...it really looks like the human equivalent to this mechanical model I have in my head. What I see in his swing is what I like to feel in my swing. I'm not sure if he uses hands-controlled pivot but his swing has that look to it- always just turning back and through.

I used to just turn my torso and let my arms follow but I feel that I get more shoulder turn with a hands-controlled pivot (right shoulder turn that is) without sacrificing that good freewheeling rotation. You can just feel the pull in the back of the right shoulder. I'm not really sure yet what's actually happening in the downswing...all I feel is me turning around a braced left side (like throwing a pitch or punching someone). I don't know what actually initiates the turn but it feels like it is powered by the legs, hands, and the turning of my torso...it's everything really I guess, not sure I can pinpoint it to one thing.

Another image I keep in mind now is that my whole left side is just a steel pole stuck in the ground...my right side (I like to monitor my right shoulder to make sure it is really getting cranked back) turns around that pole and fires around it on the downswing.

Personally, I don't like to feel any horizontal (lateral, side to side) movement or plane shifts in my swing (not sure if I have any really...still have to get more into TGM and categorize my swing)...everything is rotational and freewheeling. I've found that's how I hit it best. You just turn your arms into flails, pull that drum into motion trusting CF, and then trust CF to pull your club down to the ball...club trails and left wrist stays bent according to the "Law of the Flail," as documented in TGM.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by mikestloc

as far as my swing, i just try to do what ben doyle told me...the hands have ONE JOB.....hold onto the club......
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I assume you would consider yourself a swinger in TGM terms; in my terms you have a narrow downswing, which uses the torso unwinding with pulled in arms to propel the downswing; Hardy would call it one-plane, though in your sequence your weight seemed to start, go to and stay on the right side more than textbook (e.g., Snead, Hogan). If the foregoing is true, it would be surprising for you to feel as if your hands did much. I would think that someone taught by Ernest Jones or a Jim Hardy two-planer would feel much more control in their hands than you do.

Gorgeous swing, BTW. How do you get the club to drop behind you like that, with so much lag?
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Another image I keep in mind now is that my whole left side is just a steel pole stuck in the ground...my right side (I like to monitor my right shoulder to make sure it is really getting cranked back) turns around that pole and fires around it on the downswing.
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This image is VERY big with Carol Mann: to start the downswing, move the weight laterally (toward the target) DOWN into the left foot, like driving a piling in the Gulf of Mexico; very apparent in Yoda's swing.
 
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wanole

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quote:Originally posted by mikestloc

by doing only one thing with my hands.....HOLDING ON to the club
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That is what I am going to work on. I know froom my experience that when I yip it's with my hands not my body.


Mike...When you hit say pitch shots from 50 and in do you just hold onto the club too? Great swing by the way. I really am and want to get my follow thru like yours with the nice swivel.
 
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ej20

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The hands still need to know how to prevent the left wrist from breaking down.If you can do that without conscious thought,well you got it made like Mike has.All you do then is to just hold onto the club.Easy :)
 
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wanole

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quote:Originally posted by ej20

The hands still need to know how to prevent the left wrist from breaking down.If you can do that without conscious thought,well you got it made like Mike has.All you do then is to just hold onto the club.Easy :)
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I would think it you keep your pivot moving through the ball then there is no way your wrist should break down unless you manipulate with your hands. Your torso will be pulling the hands through like in the never hook again video.
 
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ej20

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Pulling your hands through with your torso won't guarantee that you don't flip.All the good players needed to learn how to use the hands.Elkington had a good tip in his book.He was taught that the basic motion of the wrists was thumbs up in the backswing to thumbs up in the follow through.A simple way to obtain a flat left wrist and maintain it.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by mikestloc

by doing only one thing with my hands.....HOLDING ON to the club
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C'mon...you must be holding out on me...I tried just holding on to the club with my hands and nothing happened...club didn't move...
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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So Mike, are you still using a shoulder turn takeaway?? In your last sequence some1 mentioned you were working on a right forearm takeaway.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Mike is TRYING to have LESS OF a STT, but his pivot is used to doing all of the work.

Wanole, I think you have the right idea, let the club full roll and finish swivel DUE to swinging and axis tilt, you should have UN-TRAINED that chiken wing by now.

Feel the weigt of the sweetspot in your hands and "hit it with your pivot"!
 
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ej20

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Back to the topic of trusting centrifugal force.I don't believe you can completely take the hands out of the swing.If you just hold onto the club and let centrigufal force take over,that force wants to 'untwist' your wrists which is the complete opposite of what you want happening.Your hands should be doing all they can to counter that force and in my case unfortunately it still needs constant attention.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by ej20

Back to the topic of trusting centrifugal force.I don't believe you can completely take the hands out of the swing.If you just hold onto the club and let centrigufal force take over,that force wants to 'untwist' your wrists which is the complete opposite of what you want happening.Your hands should be doing all they can to counter that force and in my case unfortunately it still needs constant attention.
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Once you properly educate your hands through mechanics, it will become something your brain does FOR YOU so you don't have to consciously remember to do it. I know that i engrained a flat left wrist that unless i PURPOSELY cock that right wrist, no matter what i do its always flat at the top with no conscious manipulation on my part.
 
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