Trying to make sense of underplane early spinout goat humping and the new release

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jbrunk

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Brian, Kevin etc….. if this is coming out on the video or needs to be handled on an individual basis, I am cool with that. I have some things I need to get straight.
I have gotten worse over the last year and it stems from my continuing struggle with underplane issues in the title of my post. I need some help ironing out the following:

Why does NHA not fix underplane? I can spin out early with NHA or SD pattern.

How should your hips move to fix underplane? (Sharp hip turn v hip slide)

Jared made the point early in the ‘release’ thread that this new move would fix underplane issues, I have not had success in figuring out how that is possible. When I try to make the movement away from the target with my hands/arms, my early turn blows that up.

The only thing I have had success with is the back and forth drill (which Brian told me to do long ago BTW), but I haven’t been able to take that to a full swing yet. Maybe with time that will come.

Additionally my best lesson was the baby fade/baby draw lesson we had in 2008. I seem to play my best hitting a slight draw with a toss. My mind has been cluttered too much since then.

All of this seems to tell me that my sequencing is the problem.

I am just sick of blocking everything. And I am tired of putting like a 2 and hitting it like a 15 (especially with all this info at my disposal).

Thanks for listening.
 
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lookingtolearn

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1. If you define underplane as hands out/clubhead under/face open, NHA will make it worse because the prescribed transition move (early unwind and carry) will contribute to those issues. The late tilt will also open the face more.

2. You can spin out early with any pattern, but NHA and SD both have elements that can contribute to it.

3. If you want a "stay turned" transition to help underplane issues, you should make a backswing hip movement that encourages that, which most likely will be a sharp hip turn.

4. The "new release" info could help an underplaner because if the hands move more away from the target, they'll likely be moving less out. The idea of having slack and giving the hands a "head start" will also limit the "tug" — the death move for the underplaner.
 
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Kevin Shields

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Im sure you already know this but that backswing (lack of depth and poor sequencing) promotes a blast out of your rotation and a backup of the shaft....hence all that roll. IMO the backswing needs alot of work. Havent seen ur swing in a while but i dont remember the backswing like it is now....could be wrong
 
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spktho

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Kevin Shields said:
Im sure you already know this but that backswing (lack of depth and poor sequencing) promotes a blast out of your rotation and a backup of the shaft....hence all that roll. IMO the backswing needs alot of work. Havent seen ur swing in a while but i dont remember the backswing like it is now....could be wrong
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If you don't mind Kevin (and jbrunk) may I try to make some sense out of your suggestions?

By pointing out lack of depth in the backswing, does that mean more turn and taking the club/hands farther into the backswing? It does look like a very short backswing. Would that by itself help with the sequencing?

When you say the shaft backs up, is that shown by the hands going out toward the ball while the shaft kind of falls behind in the downswing? I think I see where the club face opens too.(Ya, I'm still trying understand a backed up shaft). This could be caused by tugging on the arms/hands by the pivot in trying to quickly accelerate them?

So, using some of the information from the release thread: turning more in the backswing will allow room for the hands to start down and work more vertical which should get the club more on top of the hands in a dtl view before the pivot changes the hand path?

Thanks
 
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jbrunk

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Kevin Shields said:
Im sure you already know this but that backswing (lack of depth and poor sequencing) promotes a blast out of your rotation and a backup of the shaft....hence all that roll. IMO the backswing needs alot of work. Havent seen ur swing in a while but i dont remember the backswing like it is now....could be wrong
Click to expand...

What should I do with the BS? That is last thing I expected to hear?
 
faux_maestro

faux_maestro

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spktho said:
If you don't mind Kevin (and jbrunk) may I try to make some sense out of your suggestions?

By pointing out lack of depth in the backswing, does that mean more turn and taking the club/hands farther into the backswing? It does look like a very short backswing. Would that by itself help with the sequencing?
Click to expand...

More turn (shoulders and hips) should help. I have the same problems and his swing has a similar look as mine, at least in the backswing.

spktho said:
When you say the shaft backs up, is that shown by the hands going out toward the ball while the shaft kind of falls behind in the downswing? I think I see where the club face opens too.(Ya, I'm still trying understand a backed up shaft). This could be caused by tugging on the arms/hands by the pivot in trying to quickly accelerate them?
Click to expand...

This is my understanding of the reverse tumble and the cause.[/QUOTE]

spktho said:
So, using some of the information from the release thread: turning more in the backswing will allow room for the hands to start down and work more vertical which should get the club more on top of the hands in a dtl view before the pivot changes the hand path?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Will also allow for more slack.
 
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spktho

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faux_maestro said:
This is my understanding of the reverse tumble and the cause.

Will also allow for more slack.
Click to expand...

Saw in another thread that there is also a risk of getting too steep in transition which results in backing up the shaft/reverse tumbling in order to hit the ball. I think I have a better understanding of that now. Turning more in the backswing and allowing the hands and club more room makes more sense too.

Slack has been mentioned a lot before to prevent tugging the arms. So slack is having more of a disconnect between the arms and body pivot at transition. Could slack also be considered having some disconnect in the upper and lower body or, using Mclean's idea, less x factor?
 
faux_maestro

faux_maestro

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spktho said:
Saw in another thread that there is also a risk of getting too steep in transition which results in backing up the shaft/reverse tumbling in order to hit the ball. I think I have a better understanding of that now. Turning more in the backswing and allowing the hands and club more room makes more sense too.

Slack has been mentioned a lot before to prevent tugging the arms. So slack is having more of a disconnect between the arms and body pivot at transition. Could slack also be considered having some disconnect in the upper and lower body or, using Mclean's idea, less x factor?
Click to expand...

I kind of envision slack as you say a little disconnect but also less tension in my left arm and a little bend at the elbow. Kind of the Rocco/ Jimmy Ballard backswing look. If you watch Rocco he does this but I try to get a deeper turn, feeling it especially in my right shoulder and hip.

Also, I gave up on that X-factor stuff. I am more concerned with making a big turn with both my hips and shoulders. I feel like it ties in with the slack concept at least for me.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Without a face on view (and it wouldnt kill us to see a swing in real time, Im not a huge fan of super slo mo all the time) some of the suggestions above would seem logical. The backswing is short, steep and looks to be taught. that clubhead is gonna fall hard behind you. With that little time to close the gap, it promotes some serious roll into impact.
 
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softconsult

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What is confusing me is the title of the Thread versus the video. Looks to me like you are extremely steep on both the backswing and downswing, not underplane. I was struck by the similarity in your video and mine during my lesson with Mike Jacobs. He pointed out
that I was essentially swinging down too steeply and too left. After about an hour he concluded that, for me, the solution was to aim more right and widen my stance. Might be worth experimentation.
 
JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

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Jbrunk, you must have seen soft draw? The way Brian describes the back swing sequence in that video would get more turn. Butt of the club follows the belt around while keeping the right elbow above left the whole time. Around being the key I think.
 
Matt Bryda

Matt Bryda

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I seem to play my best hitting a slight draw with a toss.
Click to expand...

What happend to your "SD looking" hands more in, club more out start to your backswing?
It would match up better with your golf course swing.

Then you could work on the back and forth swinging with softer arms for a toss.
 
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jbrunk

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Matt Bryda said:
What happend to your "SD looking" hands more in, club more out start to your backswing?
It would match up better with your golf course swing.

Then you could work on the back and forth swinging with softer arms for a toss.
Click to expand...

Matt, we tried to eliminate my 'in' hands last November during my last lesson which was more NHA flavor.
 
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ej20

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I have nothing against deep hands type of swings but hands in front of the body can work very well also.I think there are pros and cons for each method but both can work in my opinion.

John Senden is the most consistent ballstriker on tour.He has not finished outside of the top 3 or 4 in the ballstriking stats in the past 10 years.That is downright phenomenal.He does not have deep hands.It is a very simple up and down two planeish type of swing.

 
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ej20

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The big difference between Senden and jbrunk though is that Senden does not reverse tumble the club all the way to impact.John doesn't reverse tumble or tumble.It's just on plane right from transition all the way to impact.Senden's hand path is a lot more vertical than jbrunk's so perhaps that's where he should be looking to improve.
 
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