Tug/Pitch Elbow

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jimmydean06

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Hello all, This is my first post on this forum though I have been a follower for a few years, and member for a few months. I am a fairly decent golfer that struggles with leaving the face open. I have a somewhat different golf swing, very upright with a right arm that gets well in front of my right hip on the downswing. I tend to get the club behind and underneath. I have a very inflexible back and have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to get a full shoulder turn, and have to keep my golf swing quite upright. As you can can see in the pictures in the link, my right arm gets in front of me and my hands are thrown out and away from my body on the downswing. I am not sure whether to worry about changing the amount of "pitch elbow" or to work with it. I feel as though this adds a good amount of timing to my downswing, especially near impact. As you can see in the face on picture I hold the club off through impact and never really release it. I think that i have a hard time releasing due to the position that my right arm gets into in the downswing. Oddly enough, my driver is my best club and i struggle with the wedges. The last video is from 2 years ago, put on youtube by a former member that I used to work for, but is much better quality and includes some slow motion. There are some freeze frame pictures at the imgur address below. Any insight or recommendations are much appreciated.

jimmydean06's albums - Imgur

 
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jimmydean06

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Magic,
I agree my head does dip quite a bit, it is less in the more recent video but has always been noticeable. I am unsure of the cause and effect of the dip. My right arm gets out in front of me and is bent well into the downswing, I think that if I did not dip I would miss the ball completely. However, I don't know if I dip because of this or if I do this because I dip and would hit well behind every ball if my right arm had full extension. And thank you for the compliment.
 
magicmarker

magicmarker

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Actually, I was thinking you could release it more if you pulled your head/neck up sooner into the downswing it could create more room for your right arm to do more extension.

May be easier to work into your swing than eliminating the dip altogether...
 
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wulsy

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I agree with Bill. It sounds like you hit it very solid and probably long. If you can repeat it, why change?
 
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DCgolf

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If you lose it right why are you setting up so far left on the tee? In golf, as Mike Hebron reminds us, we play to learn, not learn to play. Blessed with that natural tempo, take a page from Furyk or Freddie Couples and keep playing till it works. And don't fall victim to too much golfforumitis...
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
If you want to change anything, it's often a good idea to find out why you do what you want to change. Or whether or not it's the chicken or he egg. For instance, are you finding pitch elbow so you can work under that club face position or did you always grip it like that and it forces you into pitch elbow? If its the latter, it will be easier to change IMO.
 
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jimmydean06

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Kevin Shields said:
If you want to change anything, it's often a good idea to find out why you do what you want to change. Or whether or not it's the chicken or he egg. For instance, are you finding pitch elbow so you can work under that club face position or did you always grip it like that and it forces you into pitch elbow? If its the latter, it will be easier to change IMO.
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When I first started playing golf, and for the first 5 or so years, I played with a very strong grip. I would say something slightly weaker than Tommy Gainey. I think that the pitch elbow developed at this point to help me keep the face open and stop from shutting it down. However, I now have moved to a minimally strong grip and the pitch elbow is still around. I honestly have no idea what it feels like to not do it. I feel as though it can make me very narrow in the hitting area. I am struggling with the idea of changing it completely because I have no idea how I would go about it, or if I even need to. I do like the fact that it essentially eliminates the left side of the course, but it has its downfalls too. Mainly it makes me leave the face open, causing me to start my cuts further right than I would like and my draws stay out to the right.


Kevin Shields said:
Doesn't sound like he can repeat it
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This is the issue that I have with it. I feel as though it adds a great deal of timing. When I am playing well and my timing is on, I have no issues with it and can go fairly low. But, if my timing is off I am in trouble. Through my research on the golf swing it seems to me that the players that hold the release off: Trevino, Azinger, Duval, Zach Johnson are not upright swingers of the golf club. I am quite upright and I think it makes it adds some extra timing issues around impact. Most of the upright swingers that I have seen, Montgomerie, Vijay, tend to use a release similar to the free wheeling release but I feel that it is hard for me to do this with my elbow way out in front of me. I try to keep things simple, maybe I am over-thinking this.
 
Matt 4-L

Matt 4-L

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This is what I see, first of all you have a great swing and look pretty flexible. It looks to me like you sit down very late and then have to keep the pitch elbow to keep from hitting it fat because you don't have enough time to go "normal". I would be curious on what the Manzella instructors would think of you sitting down earlier and instead of keeping the pitch elbows so deep, go "normal" instead?
 
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bryan@nobackswing.com

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DCgolf said:
This brings up an interesting discussion we've had before: do you think anything can be repeated if it's done enough? IOW how do the Furyk's and the Eamon Darcy's of the world actually do it?
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good question, it's hard to separate out talent from method. also it would be interesting to see which tour players hit the most range balls over the course of a season or seasons. there are some interesting things you could with that data by tying it in with ballstriking stats and swing styles.
 
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bryan@nobackswing.com

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Kevin Shields said:
If you want to change anything, it's often a good idea to find out why you do what you want to change. Or whether or not it's the chicken or he egg. For instance, are you finding pitch elbow so you can work under that club face position or did you always grip it like that and it forces you into pitch elbow? If its the latter, it will be easier to change IMO.
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Kevin, would it be correct to say that, all other things equal, pitch elbow tends to open the clubface and punch elbow works more to close it?
 
rcw

rcw

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Get the right arm straightening faster. It will give you more width on the downswing. You will then reduce the amount of dip thorugh the ball because you will be able to reach it. Retaining that pitch elbow can cause the dipping to reach the ball, hanging on too long.
I think that will improve the consistency of your ball striking.
Throwing some out toss and tumble in there will help you square the face and reduce the tendency to miss it to the right. You could probably experiment with varying degrees of each and deciding which helps more.

Just my two cents, I'm sure these guys will give you some great help.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
All of these positions folks get into in the golf swing HAVE TO BE RELATED BACK TO THE FORCES AND TORQUES THEY PUT ON THE CLUB at any point or portion of the swing.

I am pretty darn sure that if a machine existed that force the golfer to put the PERFECT torque on the club the whole downswing, people would still look different doing it.

Having said that, anyone in pitch elbow needs to use their right shoulder complex, and their move toward forward and right side bend EVEN MORE in phase 2 of the downswing.
 
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jimmydean06

New
Brian Manzella said:
All of these positions folks get into in the golf swing HAVE TO BE RELATED BACK TO THE FORCES AND TORQUES THEY PUT ON THE CLUB at any point or portion of the swing.

I am pretty darn sure that if a machine existed that force the golfer to put the PERFECT torque on the club the whole downswing, people would still look different doing it.

Having said that, anyone in pitch elbow needs to use their right shoulder complex, and their move toward forward and right side bend EVEN MORE in phase 2 of the downswing.
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Thanks Brian, When you refer to the right shoulder complex, would this be something along the lines of how Rory McIlroy uses his right shoulder?

rcw said:
Oh, and I think you have a nice swing.
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Thank you rcw!
 
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