Tumbleicous

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lia41985

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Kevin...are there any good ball strikers that do not "tumble" ? That may be a better way to compare the two ends of the "matrix".
I don't think so, here's why:
My thoughts on tumble...

IMHO-Every good golf swing (relative) has some form of tumble.

A very important thing to always remember is that the shaft and the clubface are married. I say this only because when you steepen the shaft you are also squaring the face (ideally).

like a car (hands/arms) pulling a trailor (shaft/clubhead) you must initially pull the trailor in the correct direction so when the trailor comes unhitched (as we have learned in this forum) it continues in the right direction

Most folks never get to expirience tumble. Why? Horizontal, out or high hand path in the downswing.

If your left arm is not as vertical as possible at last parallel and you try to tumble you will hit some super steep shots or skanks. So the first key is to have a good hand path.

If you look at the most envied swings, you will typically see super vert hand paths coming down that allow the player to steepen the shaft/face combination as much as they want. They have zero concerns of skanking it or hitting it steep. They typically have a more neutral grip so the shaft can tumble as much as they want without fear of a hook.
 
If your left arm is not as vertical as possible at last parallel and you try to tumble you will hit some super steep shots or skanks. So the first key is to have a good hand path.

Hey Lia, could you explain that for me. I'm trying to learn at a rate of knots here and I can't get my head around this one.
Thanks
OLiver1
 

lia41985

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Hey Lia, could you explain that for me.
Here you go:
Kevin, what's the significance of the vertical left arm?
Technically speaking it allows you to keep the hands inside the sweetspot plane and turn the face to the ball earlier. This allows you to use the right arm as hard as you want and not worry about squaring the face. The holy grail for me personally (and all you underplaners)
Super steep shots and shanks from being under plane.
The more out the left arm the more late roll or roll/arch of the left wrist is required. You can do this but id like to strive for more #3 accummulator roll early then right arm POW with a free wheeling clubhead.
 
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when we say "last parallel," we're referring to the club's last parallel to the base line (target line), right??
 

lia41985

New member
when we say "last parallel," we're referring to the club's last parallel to the base line (target line), right??
What's being referred to:
rickiev.jpg

sergio.jpg

rayj.jpg

jim.jpg
 
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lia41985

New member
What are the main components to achieving a vertical hand path?
Here you go:
Players with good hand paths have a few of options on how they tumble the shaft/clubface combo.

Option 1 - Hogan - ish, Sergio - they have a model or low left arm position at the top and a great closed counterfall transition which puts them WAY DOWN close to the original shaft plane LINE early. From there this type of player uses both hands and right shoulder to steepen the shaft back into the ball while also squaring the face.

Option 2 -Nicklausian - Watson - They have a higher left arm position at the top. Same great counterfall, but because of the higher position at the top, they never get the shaft as close to the original shaft plane LINE. Therefore they cannot hit as much with the right shoulder and instead soley use the down pressure from the arms to steppen/tumble the shaft.

You also have a varient of strong grip players like a Duval and maybe even Azinger who have really only one option. They swing the clubhead out or steepen (kind of) with only the right shoulder. Why? because the strong grip does not allow them to truly steepen the shaft. They would be prone to pull hook if they used a model steepening action.


So what are the keys IMO?

Have a grip that allow you to steepen the shaft without fear of hitting it left.

have an incredible (maybe feeling closed) counterfall transition that keeps the hand path inside and a left arm more vertical

Then if you don't tumble/steepen the shaft you"ll hit the fattest open faced, hook shots ever.

No matter what - get into a position with your counterfall that allows you to HAVE to steepen the shaft!
When say grip configuration I am referring to whatever grip puts the face in the position to hit the shot desired. The main point being, if the face is overly closed or overly open it and one tumbles the shaft correctly they will get unacceptable reults. For example the very reason out hand path players always reverse tumble and back the shaft up is so they don't shank or pull hook. Because they back the shaft up which "tends" to open the face is the reason for overly strong grips.Vice versa for the overly inside hand path player with a massive weak grip. So, IMO the grip is vital because you are creating a viscious circle by band aiding bad hand paths and backed up shafts with compensating grips.

Preferences are preferences and I am certainly in no position to promote an exact grip for anyone. For me the right grip allows the shaft to be tumbles correctly with satisfactory ball flight. Again, the shaft must tumble to get good path and angle of attack, so the face/grip must not prevent it.

A strong counterfall/transition is again subjective, but the point being it facilitates a good hand path. If staying closed get the hand path on the right angle of attack then I say be more closed. On the other hand, if you're a plyer who gets great depth to your hands at the top you may need a less closed or be "allowed" to feel more opening in the counterfall/transition. What ever it takes to keep the hand an the right path to allow tumble.
 
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lia41985

New member
Thanks man! Wow, do you have some sort of super search engine? :)
Your welcome. Nope--I just bookmark the posts that I learn something new from and since Brian's revamp of the forum, I've gone back and just "liked" them. All my "likes" are viewable on my user profile page.
 
Pettersson's handpath looks fairly out to my admittedly untrained eye. Am I missing something?

He carries them with some shoulder turn first, then drops them vertically in the downswing. He's also hitting driver in that clip. I would like to see his iron swing to see if his hands are more vertical.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Almost a vertical handpath?

You stud. Totally vertical handpath completely separate from the turn. Allows the independence of the arms from the pivot so they can have the most vertical drop. And yes ms1170, immediately hard left. But its the lift that allows this IMO. Deep or low hands make it tough to get them to tumble left.
 
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