Tumbleicous

[curtisj76]

Downward momentum from the lift is a big part of this puzzle

Matt

What is this "lift"?

thx

 

[Matt Bryda]

What is this "lift"?

thx

Some may need more lift going back to aid the vertical hand path drop.

Matt

 

[wulsy]

The tumble is a beautiful thing to feel. Dosn't look that good, but feels beautiful. Mmmm, I love it

 

[ekennedy]

If an inward handpath on the takeaway and a closed counterfall on the downswing allows the left arm to get more vertical at last parallel (a good thing for underplaners that fight the occasional duck hook) then wouldn't "carry" open up the shoulders on the counterfall and move the left arm further away from the body?

Just askin...

 

[Lindsey Newman]

If an inward handpath on the takeaway and a closed counterfall on the downswing allows the left arm to get more vertical at last parallel (a good thing for underplaners that fight the occasional duck hook) then wouldn't "carry" open up the shoulders on the counterfall and move the left arm further away from the body?

Just askin...

It could, as anything is possible. But, you could carry the arms out to shift path more left, then have a vertical hand path from there to help tumble the club and catch the other side.

 

[lia41985]

It could, as anything is possible. But, you could carry the arms out to shift path more left, then have a vertical hand path from there to help tumble the club and catch the other side.

I smiled when I read this. Right after I read ekennedy's post I thought, "it could but it depends."

 

[ekennedy]

Thanks Lindsey, I always enjoy reading your posts.

I've experimented with carry and have had some mixed results. If I do it too quickly (transition torques) the club tends to back up and I can still hit blocks and hooks and my left arm is nowhere near vertical. A slightly inward handpath and a closed counterfall is one of the most counterintuitive things I've ever felt with my golf swing. I feel as though it will make my swing direction drift too far right. It doesn't seem to be the case as my driver ball flight is much straighter and I've regained the ability to hit a slight cut, not a push cut. My follow through is much higher as well. All good things.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Closed counterfall and in hands would be two draw components if not for a solid tumbling action of a higher, steeper clubface that also could be held off by a late tilt.

 

[wulsy]

What do you guys mean by "closed counterfall". Dropping the hands inside in the initial phase of the downswing with no tumble?

solid tumbling action of a higher, steeper clubface that also could be held off by a late tilt.

By this you mean that the clubshaft would be more vertical with the corresponding affect on the clubhead/clubface, right?

 

[wulsy]

BTW, is Haney's parallel planes model not a good way of producing tumble in the downswing? (ie consant lowering the hands in the course of the DS, assuming a laid off position at the top)

 

[ekennedy]

My version of "closed counterfall." As the backswing nears the top and your weight has shifted into the right instep after a good pivot, the upper body begins to fall onto the now lighter left foot. A closed counterfall would mean the left shoulder would remain closed to the target for a longer period of time on the downswing.

This move allows some golfers to drop their hands more vertically in the downswing as opposed to the arms being flung horizontally toward the ball due to quickly opening shoulders or hips.

 

[jbrunk]

My version of "closed counterfall." As the backswing nears the top and your weight has shifted into the right instep after a good pivot, the upper body begins to fall onto the now lighter left foot. A closed counterfall would mean the left shoulder would remain closed to the target for a longer period of time on the downswing.

This move allows some golfers to drop their hands more vertically in the downswing as opposed to the arms being flung horizontally toward the ball due to quickly opening shoulders or hips.

No doubt.

 

[lia41985]

BTW, is Haney's parallel planes model not a good way of producing tumble in the downswing? (ie consant lowering the hands in the course of the DS, assuming a laid off position at the top)

I would say that because in Haney's model the shaft is theoretically staying at the same angle and not steepening, the risk is that in lowering the hands you may end up reverse tumbling and get under the sweetspot. However, this reverse tumbling would likely flatten the shaft angle, and again, theoretically, the shaft angle should not be changing. Because the shaft, unless a force acted on it, would reverse tumble starting down, maintaining the shaft angle while the hands drop requires an input of torque that could be termed tumble.

There's a certain irony to all of this. Tiger left Butch because he was sick of being stuck and he continued to dread this problem while working with Haney. Stuck is getting under (the sweetspot) and an under sweetspot has a profound affect on the eventual sweetspot path (and also the VSP and HSP). With Foley he's found a new way of getting stuck. Tiger's hand path, as reported by Brian, is concave:

Sean's desire to have Tiger leftward, makes him HAVE TO have his right shoulder even lower, and there is a serious concavity in his hand path.

To see how a concave hand path gets you "under" see:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/29CwfJL1ASU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Good luck dealing with the ball flight that results from eventually flattening that sweetspot path. Just look at Howell. If you try to do that you'll slice! With that hand path you need to swing right with a steeper shoulder rotational pattern/eventual sweetspot path. Here's Tiger "saving it' that way at Wednesday's practice round before Bay Hill: