The Answer Manz Strikes Again!!!
I think one of the reasons pop instruction like flatness is because it gives a sense of security and tightness with the right elbow closer to the body. The swing feels tidier and more repeatable. The hands/elbow needs to travel a smaller distance to drop into the "slot" (another pop instruction concept).
Pop Golf Instruction doesn't know what it wants.
But ever since the amount of "line drawers" went to a critical-mass percentage, teachers have been trying to figure out how to get the shaft on the hands-only plane on the downswing.
YIKES!!!
How would you counter the claim of pop-instruction that upright swings lead to wildness and inconsistency?
That collage thread-starter ought to do it, huh?
If I'm shooting for a SD pattern and I find myself some days on the course hitting pushes/hooks- would you encourage me to add some NHA2 feel on those days? Maybe "shake the sugar" or yellow brick road?
The NHA2-style through the ball movement, is where most folks who want to control their ball flight should wind up.
About one year from now some Golf Digest Top Ten Teacher will conduct some extensive "research," and this innovative cutting-edge research will result in his "discovery" of the secret of the upright swing, and give it a new name like the High Explosion swing; hence the lemmings will have something new to write about for a year.
In the 40's, swings got more upright because the steel-shaft era was in full effect, and the swings WERE steeper than the hickory ones.
In the 50's there was a little of both, but the "wave" was going flatter.
In the 60's Nicklaus moved everyone upright.
In the 70's Miller was king, and upright was too.
In the 80's Ballard got everyone "connected" and so did Leadbetter. The Flat finish was en vogue.
In the 90's Tiger and the proliferation of video and line-drawing moved golfers to flatter downswings from orthodox downswings, and Rick Smith almost single-handedly kept them from over-flattening with his silly little "stuck-behind me" dance.
In the 00's the trend is flat.
The 10's will go the other way. Mark it down.
Even better, you have some of the games most powerful/longest players in this group as well. Hmmmmmm
Still waiting for the super-flat Long Drive Champ.
I can't tell you how much time I've spent trying to get my swing flatter at the top. I was too busy trying to emulate pictures and trace invisible lines, rather than addressing the root causes of my misses (over-rotation of left arm, pop-out and poor pivot).
Showing some of the all-time greats in positions that would be considered "upright" by some in the instruction community is very reassuring and only reinforces the concept of customization.
That was the general idea.
I started to focus on a a good weight shift and operating above the "shoulder glass" (an imaginary piece of glass between the ball and my right armpit) in my takeaway and I've substantially improved my ball striking...This all stemmed from repeated viewings of NHA2. All I think about is operating above the glass.
It hasn't hurt DT much either.
Results should be worth something in the analysis. Add in as well Cabrera, Wadkins, Ballesteros... Lot longer list than flat.
No doubt.
An interesting topic to me is the discussion on geography and how that dictates how a player swings the club..thoughts?
I think it would have more of an effect on the golfer's hands.
Watson is maybe the most upright of the bunch and also has the most Open Champs.
Hadn't hurt him in the wind, eh?
I do believe the sect that likes flatter swings largely because they make prettier lines. I still like the "look" of it and have nothing against it as well, as long as its better for that player.
Like I said, trying to make things look good in 2-D.
I can tell you this, Johnny Miller had the best swing I ever saw in person.
Flat looks better i'll agree but as i said in a post long ago and even brought up at the GTE...how many players are in the hall of fame with flat swings?
A couple of hickory guys, and one or two others.
This is just like the bent left wrist at the top non-debate.
I don't know. . . how many? Is it really weighted toward the upright guys? I suppose the mystic of Hogan trumps actual numbers?
I maintain that Hogan was NOT FLAT, just short backswing-ed.
So what makes a flatter swing better for a player? What makes an upright swing better for a player? I'm curious because I never seem to get a clear answer on this question when I ask instructors I've seen.
I teach golfers a certain hand-path for their needs, but the top location just SEEKS a place where they can trace the right plane line for the disired bottom of the D-Plane path.
Form FOLLOWS function.
Why do some pitchers in baseball throw more side arm vs overhand (orthodox)?
How many pitchers in the baseball hall of fame through sidearm vs overhand(orthodox)? Don't know but I bet more through more overhand!
Just a thought
Matt
I thought having the arm on a 90° angle made for more speed.
Physics vs. Junk Physics.
In my opinion, with a flatter swing you can hit earlier because you're close to a low enough plane already and so under pressure getting quick is not so bad.
No.
What is your "striking plane" is the Turned Shoulder Plane.
Huh?
While with an upright plane you can have a more dynamic and powerful transition where you really bend the shaft and get some power but there is a timing element.
Timing and planes....
I don't see it.
Timing and downswing plane shifts, I see.
But, what if you are a TSP downswing guy.
Eh?
Also, upright swings tend to have a wider arc or, if not a wider arc, at least a longer arc of acceleration in the downswing and more time to generate some speed. Because of these attributes, upright swings by necessity tend to be a bit slower but that is ok because they have time to generate speed.
Like Sadlowski?
Rory Sabbatini?
Chew on this...Seriously???
Seriously.
Who says you CANT have an upright swing?
That would just be ridiculous.
Who says you CAN'T lean to the right a bit on the backswing?
Who says you CAN'T play well with a flat shoulder turn?
That
is ridiculous.
However, this is DEFINITELY the first time I've ever heard Palmer described as an upright swinger.
You need to look at some good black and white video,a nd get your lines straight.
Some great flat swingers I can think of off the top of my head are Moe, Hogan and Knudson. Probably each should be considered top 10 (if not top 5) ballstrikers of all time.
Moe. Normal Plane.
Hogan. Normal at times, short backswing at times. Flat at times.
Knudson, As orthodox as Homestyle Vanilla Blue Bell Ice Cream.
Something that I was thinking about is recently I've been re-reading TGM and Homer Kelley talks about if you use an angled hinge, an upright swing plane will make the angled hinge behave like a vertical hinge. The flatter swing plane will make the angled hinge behave like a horizontal hinge.
Horizontal Hinge Action does not exist.
It never did.
The Flat Swing Revolution...not.
