Using the ground as leverage

[mandrin]

There is a bit of mystique involved evoking mother earth as a source for power in a golf swing. Readily done but not readily explained. The earth is simply a big mass and the golfer just a tiny mass equipped with some muscles to activate the various parts – nothing really very mystique.

What is important to consider is the motion of the center of mass of the golfer. For instance, from the top there can be a downward motion and at the bottom an upward motion. Both can result in more clubhead speed

The squatting motion is a small but important downward motion of the center of mass. Anyone can experiment with a small but crisp downward motion of the body, from the top, and readily experience the additional torque generated.

Getting out of the squat, the lead shoulder going up, or the lead leg snapping straight, it is all part of the same upward motion of the center of mass body just before impact, injecting kinetic energy into the swing, similarly to a child’s swing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Thank you for expanding on this subject

 

[hue]

Ringer: Take note . I think Mandarin placed this post with you in mind.

 

[Ringer]

All I'm gonna say is, I can move my legs and hips, but not move the club. But if I move my arms, the club HAS to move with them.

Body supports the motion, the arms MAKE the motion.

I do appreciate the post Mandrin.

 

[mcflog]

All I'm gonna say is, I can move my legs and hips, but not move the club. But if I move my arms, the club HAS to move with them.

Body supports the motion, the arms MAKE the motion.

I do appreciate the post Mandrin.

If you move your your legs and hips and do not move the club you are using muscular resistance to keep the club from moving. I'm not a passive arms person myself as far as I believe in more particiaption from all parts. but if the arms are completely passive and you shift your weight the club will move. George Knudson had a nice little section in his book demonstrating this.

 

[shortgamer]

All I'm gonna say is, I can move my legs and hips, but not move the club. But if I move my arms, the club HAS to move with them.

Body supports the motion, the arms MAKE the motion.

I do appreciate the post Mandrin.

You can swing quite well from simply dropping the arms and letting the pivot carry them to the ball as Brian stated in a video.

 

[puttmad]

...

All I'm gonna say is, I can move my legs and hips, but not move the club. But if I move my arms, the club HAS to move with them.

Body supports the motion, the arms MAKE the motion.

I do appreciate the post Mandrin.

Ringer,
If you were to relax all the relevant muscles at the top of the backswing, gravity will pull your hands/arms back down. You don't actually have to do anything.

Of course the body supports the motion, but it adds to it as well. If it didn't there would be no need to make a pivot, you could just swing your arms.

The arms actually do very little. The left arm sits on the chest for most of the swing and the right arm folds and unfolds at the elbow. That's all they do. Like spokes on a wheel except one of them bends. It's the hub that does all the work to get the spokes in motion.

 

[JeffM]

Mandrin

Why do you conclude that the child propels the swing by lowering his center of gravity? I would have thought that he propels the swing by pressing down with his lower limbs when the swing just passes its nadir point, so that the force from the extending legs produces a propelling force that comes from the body, and that has nothing to do with any change in the position of the center of gravity of his body.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

....

Mandrin

Why do you conclude that the child propels the swing by lowering his center of gravity? I would have thought that he propels the swing by pressing down with his lower limbs when the swing just passes its nadir point, so that the force from the extending legs produces a propelling force that comes from the body, and that has nothing to do with any change in the position of the center of gravity of his body.

Jeff.

The child does change his center of gravity by changing the angle of force to the fulcrum of the swing. He pulls back with his arms and extends his legs. His weight is now effectively forward of the original line of force (downwards from the top of the swing chain to his butt (or his feet if he is standing on the swing).....

 

[mandrin]

Why do you conclude that the child propels the swing by lowering his center of gravity?

Jeff,

Have another go at my article, read it carefully, and tell me if you maintain your interpretation.

I would have thought that he propels the swing by pressing down with his lower limbs when the swing just passes its nadir point, so that the force from the extending legs produces a propelling force that comes from the body, and that has nothing to do with any change in the position of the center of gravity of his body.

The extending legs don’t really produce a ‘propelling force’ as its orientation makes an angle of 90 degs with the motion. But it does expend positive work on the mass, increasing the kinetic energy.

 

[JeffM]

Two points

When I swing like the child, I extend my legs in such a direction that it propels the swing further because the timing of my leg extension coincides with a point that the swing is just climbing up from its nadir point (7 o'clock position). At that point, my body it tilted backwards (by holding onto the swing chains) and the extending legs are angled to about 7 o'clock. They therefore impart an upwards force to the swingseat, that causes it to accelerate.

Second point.

I don't know what you mean when you state "that extending the legs expends positive force on the mass". What mass? If the mass is the body, I cannot understand that point because the propelling force energy is passed to the swing's seat and becomes dissipated in the swinging of the seat as the seat accelerates.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

.....

Jeff,

Have another go at my article, read it carefully, and tell me if you maintain your interpretation.

Mandarin,

Have you ever seen a guy called Brad Petersen swing a golf club?..

This guy sets up with really low hands, keeps his weight on the back foot all the way through the swing and is up on both toes well before impact (I believe you'll see Karl Woodward doing the same thing).
His left heel is at least 2" off the deck before impact.

And he hits it MILES (461 yards recorded )....

I watched this move he was making (he didn't refer to it on the DVD) but there was no way I could hit the ball accurately when I tried it.

Is there a trick to moving your swing center up and down accurately while swinging?...

 

[mandrin]

Two points

When I swing like the child, I extend my legs in such a direction that it propels the swing further because the timing of my leg extension coincides with a point that the swing is just climbing up from its nadir point (7 o'clock position). At that point, my body it tilted backwards (by holding onto the swing chains) and the extending legs are angled to about 7 o'clock. They therefore impart an upwards force to the swingseat, that causes it to accelerate.

Second point.

I don't know what you mean when you state "that extending the legs expends positive force on the mass". What mass? If the mass is the body, I cannot understand that point because the propelling force energy is passed to the swing's seat and becomes dissipated in the swinging of the seat as the seat accelerates.

Jeff.

Jeff,

Forget about all the details of arms, legs, and butt, just simplify the situation to its very bare bone form. Simply think of a point mass whirling around a center and pulling on the cord through the swing center, reducing the swing radius. The velocity of the point mass increases. The action you descibe also decreases the effective swing radius and useful close to the bottom of swing arc.

When the body mass M of the child is moved through the distance Δr towards the center, positive work is expended on it by the centripetal force acting on the mass M. And since any positive work expended on a mass increases its kinetic energy, we are 'pumping' kinetic energy into the swing and increasing the linear speed of the mass M in the playground swing.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Two points

When I swing like the child, I extend my legs in such a direction that it propels the swing further because the timing of my leg extension coincides with a point that the swing is just climbing up from its nadir point (7 o'clock position). At that point, my body it tilted backwards (by holding onto the swing chains) and the extending legs are angled to about 7 o'clock. They therefore impart an upwards force to the swingseat, that causes it to accelerate.

Jeff.

You ever see one of those swings that you stand on? It has rigid poles instead of chains and a platform to stand on instead of sitting in a seat. You make it move by leaning in either direction. You lean backwards and it goes forwards or if you are standing sideways in it like some people do and lean left it swings right and vice versa. Time the lean and you go higher and higher. In other words no 'leg kicking' just changing location of cog.

 

[bbftx]

Hitting on your tiptoes

Is there a trick to moving your swing center up and down accurately while swinging?...

I used to get up on my toes when I was trying to hit the ball hard (with driver). It wasn't a concious action --- it just... happened. Once I noticed myself doing it, I was always amazed that I could hit good shots that way, but it did seem to work more often than not.

MAndrin has pointed out before that Laura Davies did this, and I've noticed some other pros and ams that do it too. None that I talked to were real aware that they were doing it until someone pointed it out.

I've never seen anybody succesfully TRY to incorporate this move into their swing and I'd advise against it for the very "consistency/accuracy issue" you raise. I went out of my way to STOP doing it, and I think my driver consistency is a little better having eliminated it.

 

[shortgamer]

I used to get up on my toes when I was trying to hit the ball hard (with driver). It wasn't a concious action --- it just... happened. Once I noticed myself doing it, I was always amazed that I could hit good shots that way, but it did seem to work more often than not.

MAndrin has pointed out before that Laura Davies did this, and I've noticed some other pros and ams that do it too. None that I talked to were real aware that they were doing it until someone pointed it out.

I've never seen anybody succesfully TRY to incorporate this move into their swing and I'd advise against it for the very "consistency/accuracy issue" you raise. I went out of my way to STOP doing it, and I think my driver consistency is a little better having eliminated it.

I played with a guy once that looked to actually come off the ground at impact and he just killed the ball.
Great player-set a course record 64 once. What ever works.

 

[puttmad]

....

I used to get up on my toes when I was trying to hit the ball hard (with driver). It wasn't a concious action --- it just... happened. Once I noticed myself doing it, I was always amazed that I could hit good shots that way, but it did seem to work more often than not.

MAndrin has pointed out before that Laura Davies did this, and I've noticed some other pros and ams that do it too. None that I talked to were real aware that they were doing it until someone pointed it out.

I've never seen anybody succesfully TRY to incorporate this move into their swing and I'd advise against it for the very "consistency/accuracy issue" you raise. I went out of my way to STOP doing it, and I think my driver consistency is a little better having eliminated it.

I think I agree with you there, Concious thought makes you overdo it.
Fascinating to watch someone like Brad Petersen do it though. And he makes pure impact..as does Karl Woodward, who hit that 860 yard par-6 hole (Australia I think) in two shots.....

I always wonder why they have to do it that way (unconciously or not) when Mike Austin could outhit them and not do it at all?...

 

[puttmad]

While we are on this subject, it does show up one quite significant thing.
A few authorities say you should plant your left heel from the top of the backswing (when I tried this move it caused premature rotation and big pulls left).
It's pretty obvious that in reality that is not the case. How can you be planting your left heel when you are up on your left toe before and at impact?
And it must be more or less the same for irons etc, but you don't actually see any heel lift because they are swinging a bit softer. I think maybe the left heel is "light" at impact though.
Any thoughts?....

 

[Jono]

While we are on this subject, it does show up one quite significant thing.
A few authorities say you should plant your left heel from the top of the backswing (when I tried this move it caused premature rotation and big pulls left).
It's pretty obvious that in reality that is not the case. How can you be planting your left heel when you are up on your left toe before and at impact?
And it must be more or less the same for irons etc, but you don't actually see any heel lift because they are swinging a bit softer. I think maybe the left heel is "light" at impact though.
Any thoughts?....

To get UP through impact, you need to get DOWN during the initial stages of the downswing, no? Many pros talk about the "squat" move at the start of the downswing. Sam Snead is an example of this, I suppose. He certainly seems to get the left heel down during the initial phase of the downswing.

 

[mandrin]

Mandarin,
Is there a trick to moving your swing center up and down accurately while swinging?...

puttmad,

As a start it necessary to be aware that a vertical motion of the body can indeed lead to greater clubhead speed. Not quite general knowledge. Both ‘down from the top’ and ‘up from the bottom’, can potentially increase clubhead speed. Perhaps the greatest gain to be obtained from the top. The two are not quite the same. From the top a vertical motion of the whole body creates essentially a reservoir of kinetic energy which can subsequently be transferred to the clubhead. The vertical motion upwards at the bottom is really a ‘shortening of the swing radius’, injecting some kinetic energy, and can lead to a few percent extra clubhead speed.

It has to be realized that the motion at the bottom has to be rather crisp otherwise the clubhead has passed by and for that reason can only lead to a moderate gain. I can’t think of any teacher teaching these moves as such. But Bob Mann comes to mind, coming close, teaching a vertical sit down as the only conscious move in the down swing. It is easily felt that when tightly wound up from the top a crisp impulsive vertical motion leads to substantial torques.