Using the ground as leverage

[golfbulldog]

GBD



The key is to get the club moving faster and THEN speed up the pivot to match the clubhead and keep everything in balance, albeit faster......

This way around is far easier to achieve...

But doesn't "The inside move the outside"... its just that the outside then starts to slow the inside when the centre of gravity of the arms / clubhead ( the outside) is further away from the rotational centre.

I am not suggesting increasing the speed of the pivot, merely minimising its deceleration. In my laymans terms that involves the pivot doing more work.

It seems that many pivots get lazy and have no torque. As soon as there is higher workload placed on the pivot ( due to mass moving in rotation at a greater distance from the centre) then they slow too quickly and even stall. this makes it almost impossible to trace a straight plane line and pivot stalling leads to flipping and bent plane lines... maybe

Still treading water in the deep end...

I just don't like the idea of pivot keeping up with the clubhead... what does Ben Doyle talk about "not pushing shopping carts faster than you can run " ( or something like that)... you're saying that you should get the cart going as fast as it can and then run to keep up....

I'm not sure... still like the idea of a high torque pivot - that is what drives the swinging motion.

 

[puttmad]

....

But doesn't "The inside move the outside"... its just that the outside then starts to slow the inside when the centre of gravity of the arms / clubhead ( the outside) is further away from the rotational centre.

I am not suggesting increasing the speed of the pivot, merely minimising its deceleration. In my laymans terms that involves the pivot doing more work.

It seems that many pivots get lazy and have no torque. As soon as there is higher workload placed on the pivot ( due to mass moving in rotation at a greater distance from the centre) then they slow too quickly and even stall. this makes it almost impossible to trace a straight plane line and pivot stalling leads to flipping and bent plane lines... maybe

Still treading water in the deep end...

I just don't like the idea of pivot keeping up with the clubhead... what does Ben Doyle talk about "not pushing shopping carts faster than you can run " ( or something like that)... you're saying that you should get the cart going as fast as it can and then run to keep up....

I'm not sure... still like the idea of a high torque pivot - that is what drives the swinging motion.

GBD Try this one for size..

Point your right arm out at 45* to the right of your body.
Keeping your right upper arm horizontal, bend from the elbow until your forearm is pointing straight up to the sky.
Now cock your wrist so your palm is pointing up to the sky.
Now stick a club in that hand. The shaft will be horizontal and pointing directly behind you.
Now rotate your right forearm anti-clockwise. Don't move your elbow!.. The clubshaft will now have swung around and smacked you on the back of the head (sorry 'bout that, I forgot )..
Now simply rotate your right forearm clockwise, BUT keep your elbow still and the full wrist cock so your palm is facing the sky all the time. You will find the clubshaft will spin to your right quickly.

Now put your left hand on the grip also. Do exactly the same winding up (anti-clockwise rotation) process. you will find the left hand on the club is now stopping you smacking the back of your head and the right forearm muscles are really wound up.
Now do the fast clockwise right forearm rotation again. Keep the right hand under the left at all times (helps if you keep a flat left wrist).

Now do your normal golf backswing and do that anti-clockwise wind up process. At the top when beginning the downswing, really rotate that right arm clockwise. Then just hang on...

I will guarantee you that if you do this a few time AND gradually adjust your pivot speed to account for the fast moving clubhead, you will feel some of the fastest clubhead speeds you've ever felt...
Have fun , but don't hurt yourself, make sure you pivot.....

 

[shootin4par]

Mandrin
Thanks for your response and four days ago I would not have understood all of what you said to me but I met with an instructor, this is brians site so I will respect that and not say his name, after the four days I totally understand what you are saying. The pivot moves and when it stops it transfers energy to the the right arm, when the right arms straightens it stops and transfers the energy to the wrist and when it stops that transfers it to the clubhead. So in my swing I shift back and arms go to the top, I shift forward and then I crack the whip. The swing is that simple now, for me at least. Oh, I forgot to mention the set up supersedes all motion. Thanks again mandrin and for now I have no further questions.

 

[mandrin]

If a player increased their pivot work during the period when the pivot usually slows down....

I suspect that this is difficult to do and the pivot would just slow down less... but what would happen to the clubhead speed and location?

Would it still achieve inline position at the same place ( as if pivot work were constant)? Would the clubhead speed increase??

Can you increase the power of you pivot and stop it slowing ? ... would this be beneficial?

Thanks anybody who helps.

Special thanks to Mandrin - inspiring non-physics people to at least dabble in physics thoughts!

golfbulldog,

I have done quite some time ago an analysis which seems to fit quite nicely with your questioning. Have a look – [size=+1] Pivot Torque [/size].

 

[puttmad]

...

golfbulldog,

I have done quite some time ago an analysis which seems to fit quite nicely with your questioning. Have a look – [size=+1] Pivot Torque [/size].

Damn good Mandarin...keep it coming..

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks - sounds like Tomasello?

GBD Try this one for size..

Point your right arm out at 45* to the right of your body.
Keeping your right upper arm horizontal, bend from the elbow until your forearm is pointing straight up to the sky.
Now cock your wrist so your palm is pointing up to the sky.
Now stick a club in that hand. The shaft will be horizontal and pointing directly behind you.
Now rotate your right forearm anti-clockwise. Don't move your elbow!.. The clubshaft will now have swung around and smacked you on the back of the head (sorry 'bout that, I forgot )..
Now simply rotate your right forearm clockwise, BUT keep your elbow still and the full wrist cock so your palm is facing the sky all the time. You will find the clubshaft will spin to your right quickly.

Now put your left hand on the grip also. Do exactly the same winding up (anti-clockwise rotation) process. you will find the left hand on the club is now stopping you smacking the back of your head and the right forearm muscles are really wound up.
Now do the fast clockwise right forearm rotation again. Keep the right hand under the left at all times (helps if you keep a flat left wrist).

Now do your normal golf backswing and do that anti-clockwise wind up process. At the top when beginning the downswing, really rotate that right arm clockwise. Then just hang on...

I will guarantee you that if you do this a few time AND gradually adjust your pivot speed to account for the fast moving clubhead, you will feel some of the fastest clubhead speeds you've ever felt...
Have fun , but don't hurt yourself, make sure you pivot.....

Thanks for your advice and health warning!

I get what you are driving at... It does seem similar to Tom Tomasello's teaching of a right hand karate chop from the top of the backswing with a pivot that responds to the movement of the arms... have tried it with good result on occasion but... will try again thanks!

 

[golfbulldog]

golfbulldog,

I have done quite some time ago an analysis which seems to fit quite nicely with your questioning. Have a look – [size=+1] Pivot Torque [/size].

Thanks Mandrin - Free wheeling through impact it is then!!

But... one more question please

If the shoulder torque were parabolic in nature ( ie. like series "c" for the first 0.2 seconds and then a bit like series "a" ( albeit softer slope) from 0.2 seconds until impact....

What would happen ... would the wrists maintain their cocked position further into the swing without the need for forearm power... ie. inert arms ? I suspect that this would not help in clubhead speed but might help if one were hitting an enormous object ( where the concept of resisting impact deceleration might hold true... like punching a heavyweight boxer...)

Thanks again.. i going back to my lawn mower... cut grass very easy now !

 

[puttmad]

...

Thanks for your advice and health warning!

I get what you are driving at... It does seem similar to Tom Tomasello's teaching of a right hand karate chop from the top of the backswing with a pivot that responds to the movement of the arms... have tried it with good result on occasion but... will try again thanks!

GBD
What I described in my last post, was as far as I know, first referred to by James Braid. He called it "The Corkscrew"
That was about 100 years ago, and he hit the ball 300 yards back then, with those dickery shafts and putta gercha balls.....

Also known as the throw....

 

[Brian Manzella]

All you have to do is watch an athletic golfer throw a club "down the fairway" from a "normal" address position, and watch it frame-by-frame.

You see it all.

So...I will try to video this when the rain stops here in Loozyana.

 

[shootin4par]

why would we not just throw it at the ball?

 

[mandrin]

Thanks Mandrin - Free wheeling through impact it is then!!

But... one more question please

If the shoulder torque were parabolic in nature ( ie. like series "c" for the first 0.2 seconds and then a bit like series "a" ( albeit softer slope) from 0.2 seconds until impact....

What would happen ... would the wrists maintain their cocked position further into the swing without the need for forearm power... ie. inert arms ? I suspect that this would not help in clubhead speed but might help if one were hitting an enormous object ( where the concept of resisting impact deceleration might hold true... like punching a heavyweight boxer...)

Thanks again.. i going back to my lawn mower... cut grass very easy now !

golfbulldog,

I would have to do an exact analysis to give a definite answer. However, don’t expect too much diference since ‘a’, ‘b’ and ‘c’, have very different torques and yet show surprising little difference for such large difference in torques applied.

The increasing magnitude of the parabolic inner torque, you are suggesting, just prior to impact, has only a marginal effect since the centrifugal torque is then largely dominating.

Try it on the lawn mower and see if a parabolic cutting procedure produces a more eficient cutting operation.