birdie_man
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Practicing with the swivel disks?
What do those things do anyhow Peter? I don't understand.
What do those things do anyhow Peter? I don't understand.
Video: Brian Manzella meets Peter Croker
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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golfbulldog
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Two types of pivot
The more i watch the discussion between Brian and Peter, the more i am convinced that they are discussing completely different style of pivot.
Brian describes his "pivot powered, hand controlled pivot". Really a "pivot powered, hand-sensation controlled pivot" This, to MY understanding at least, means that the pivot moves the power package but the manner of its movement is dictated by the sensations felt in the hands. The key is that the hands are moved by the pivot.
Peter describes a pivot in which the "movement" of the hands/arms/ power package dictate the pivot movement( pivot movement secondary to power package movement) as opposed to Brian where the "sensations" in the hands dictate pivot movement.
During Brian's demonstration of the Pivot he states that (approx quote) " the pivot only pivots until around the finish swivel, after that the club pulls the pivot" ie. the pivot is secondary to club motion during follow through to finish. Brian shows this when he is on the swivel discs when he demonstrates that a finish swivel creates a big change in pivot motion.
This is ok to understand at this phase of the swing motion but Peter Croker's pivot seems to state that this hand / arm motion moves the pivot THROUGHOUT the swing.
A pivot responsive to hand motion rather than hand sensation.
Any thoughts...?
The more i watch the discussion between Brian and Peter, the more i am convinced that they are discussing completely different style of pivot.
Brian describes his "pivot powered, hand controlled pivot". Really a "pivot powered, hand-sensation controlled pivot" This, to MY understanding at least, means that the pivot moves the power package but the manner of its movement is dictated by the sensations felt in the hands. The key is that the hands are moved by the pivot.
Peter describes a pivot in which the "movement" of the hands/arms/ power package dictate the pivot movement( pivot movement secondary to power package movement) as opposed to Brian where the "sensations" in the hands dictate pivot movement.
During Brian's demonstration of the Pivot he states that (approx quote) " the pivot only pivots until around the finish swivel, after that the club pulls the pivot" ie. the pivot is secondary to club motion during follow through to finish. Brian shows this when he is on the swivel discs when he demonstrates that a finish swivel creates a big change in pivot motion.
This is ok to understand at this phase of the swing motion but Peter Croker's pivot seems to state that this hand / arm motion moves the pivot THROUGHOUT the swing.
A pivot responsive to hand motion rather than hand sensation.
Any thoughts...?
Last edited:
Perfect Impact
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The subjectivity of preference, and the necessity to emphasize one or the other is part of normal development of skill.
As a pianist I did drills over the years for various motions and configurations: but I had to internalize their automaticity to be skilled enough to be able to play the pieces they prepared me for.
From day to day a golfer will change his swing thoughts: one day he will emphasize moving his hands with certain exertions and ignore his pivot; another day he will see how fast he can pivot and hopefully be connected to where it moves his hands faster.
But my learning of it my way and in my own sequence in response to the needs I perceive I have will not be the same as YOUR practice and learning procedure for the same final result.
Hands controlled pivot is a great idea: I throw a football without thinking "I need to turn my shoulders!" but they DO turn in response to my intention. So is pivot controlled hands, where like Brian says, Smash the ball with your pivot.
So what I do depends on the weather, and whether I want to emphasize or internalize one or the other in developing my skill.
That's my take.
As for HOW the pivot is accomplished, well I have serious issues with the CGS pivot instruction...perhaps a CGS trained golfer's pivot won't look different than a GH trained golfer's, but I suspect it would. One of Peter's poster boy's swing was classic as a demo of how I see the pivot needs to be.
Go figure. A lot of it goes back to how communication of golf exertions and motions plays out.
As a pianist I did drills over the years for various motions and configurations: but I had to internalize their automaticity to be skilled enough to be able to play the pieces they prepared me for.
From day to day a golfer will change his swing thoughts: one day he will emphasize moving his hands with certain exertions and ignore his pivot; another day he will see how fast he can pivot and hopefully be connected to where it moves his hands faster.
But my learning of it my way and in my own sequence in response to the needs I perceive I have will not be the same as YOUR practice and learning procedure for the same final result.
Hands controlled pivot is a great idea: I throw a football without thinking "I need to turn my shoulders!" but they DO turn in response to my intention. So is pivot controlled hands, where like Brian says, Smash the ball with your pivot.
So what I do depends on the weather, and whether I want to emphasize or internalize one or the other in developing my skill.
That's my take.
As for HOW the pivot is accomplished, well I have serious issues with the CGS pivot instruction...perhaps a CGS trained golfer's pivot won't look different than a GH trained golfer's, but I suspect it would. One of Peter's poster boy's swing was classic as a demo of how I see the pivot needs to be.
Go figure. A lot of it goes back to how communication of golf exertions and motions plays out.
Peter~
The "slight tilt" comment in your response post left me with a different impression than the video. I feel what you say is being accomplishing with a slight tilt at address is understood, and also how this benefits those who have difficulty keeping the shoulders level (rear shoulder gets high) in the backstroke. Brian appeared to question lack of hip slide in the video and I assumed your "preset" response meant something equivalent or more than “slight.” Is there additional tilt from setting weight to the front side as demonstrated when your hip was set forward against the post?
I can envision (from your described hip movement and front knee position at the top) the front hip “gaining on the target” in the move to the top, providing additional tilt. However, this would be different than “rebalancing” following a weight shift away from the target in the backstroke.
Slovakia must be close to the center of Europe.
Thanks for your response.
DRW
The "slight tilt" comment in your response post left me with a different impression than the video. I feel what you say is being accomplishing with a slight tilt at address is understood, and also how this benefits those who have difficulty keeping the shoulders level (rear shoulder gets high) in the backstroke. Brian appeared to question lack of hip slide in the video and I assumed your "preset" response meant something equivalent or more than “slight.” Is there additional tilt from setting weight to the front side as demonstrated when your hip was set forward against the post?
I can envision (from your described hip movement and front knee position at the top) the front hip “gaining on the target” in the move to the top, providing additional tilt. However, this would be different than “rebalancing” following a weight shift away from the target in the backstroke.
Slovakia must be close to the center of Europe.
Thanks for your response.
DRW
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