Wedge play keys?

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So, with all the new Trackman data out there, and improved D-plane knowledge, I'd like to hear how these applications have improved people's wedge play. I'm asking because, even though I've kept improving my game over the last couple of years, I feel that my wedge play has gotten worse. I'm able to apply d-plane to all my other shots, make corrections easily, and keep narrowing and narrowing my misses, but can't seem to get the hang of it with those precious wedges.

-Since we're hitting down with wedges more than other shots (normally), their Horizontal Plane needs to be more left.
-Do we have any trackman data on TOUR players' wedge shots, maybe one of those tests/combines?

Any suggestions from similar experiences would be appreciated.

Cheers.
 
First thing I'd do is check whether you're missing left and right, or long and short.

At least according to Pelz, wedge misses tend to be far worse from point of view of distance control than direction. Although, anecdotally, directional misses with the wedges may still look worse than going long or short when you knock it straight down the stick.

From an impact point of view, I'd say that quality of contact is going to be key to consistent distance control. Impact tape, or even masking tape, might provide the feedback you need. I guess trackman would be great for assessing consistent dynamic loft and speed.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
You do not have to aim or swing more left with wedges just because you hit down more. The higher VSP and the ball starting closer to the path than a long iron play a significant role.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
No, aim wherever you need to aim. Im just saying its not further left for a wedge than a long iron. Its reverse if anything.
 
thx, but what about when Brian says "Say you are going 5' down at impact so you need to compensate and aim a little left to hit a straight ball"

thanks!



No, aim wherever you need to aim. Im just saying its not further left for a wedge than a long iron. Its reverse if anything.
 
Basically there's two factors that will force a golfer to 'swing left' with an iron *if* they want to hit it dead straight.

  • Vertical Swing Plane
  • Attack Angle

The flatter the VSP, the more you need to swing left to square up the path. The steeper the AoA, the more you need to swing left to square up the path.

With a wedge, we typically have a steep AoA, but also a steep VSP. With a 3-iron we have a shallower AoA and a flatter VSP.

If you typically hit your 5-iron with a -2* AoA and then you start using a steeper AoA, like -4*, *if* you keep the VSP the same, then you need to 'swing left' more to square up the path. Or if the AoA is the same, but the VSP gets flatter, you need to 'swing left' more to square up the path.

So ball position becomes important. Play the ball too far back with a 5-iron, you can increase the attack angle and keep the VSP the same and start hitting hooks, all because of a couple of inches difference in ball position.





3JACK
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Which is why, provided you can hit it solidly, the highest practical VSP and the lowest practical A^A would be my ideal for iron play.

For example: 6 iron, 60-62 VSP 2-2.5 A^A, and 19-21 dynamic loft would take alot of the confusion about where to aim.
 
Hmm...that's all food for thought.

My contact certainly has not been satisfying, but my distance control actually isn't that bad. My "bad" misses are definitely more offline than you'd expect for a wedge. I'll have a good look and see what my VSP is doing.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Basically there's two factors that will force a golfer to 'swing left' with an iron *if* they want to hit it dead straight.

  • Vertical Swing Plane
  • Attack Angle

The flatter the VSP, the more you need to swing left to square up the path. The steeper the AoA, the more you need to swing left to square up the path.

With a wedge, we typically have a steep AoA, but also a steep VSP. With a 3-iron we have a shallower AoA and a flatter VSP.

If you typically hit your 5-iron with a -2* AoA and then you start using a steeper AoA, like -4*, *if* you keep the VSP the same, then you need to 'swing left' more to square up the path. Or if the AoA is the same, but the VSP gets flatter, you need to 'swing left' more to square up the path.

So ball position becomes important. Play the ball too far back with a 5-iron, you can increase the attack angle and keep the VSP the same and start hitting hooks, all because of a couple of inches difference in ball position.

How about hitting with a 0º AoA and just nipping the ball with your wedges and no divot? This would eliminate VSP/HSP considerations. It would seem that you have more tolerance for error doing this than hitting down on the ball some 2" - 4" before bottoming out.

Moe Norman boasted about his level driver head approach into the ball, claiming he kept the path level for some 18" before Impact. This may not have been optimal, but it certainly was accurate for him.

Just asking ....
 
How about hitting with a 0º AoA and just nipping the ball with your wedges and no divot? This would eliminate VSP/HSP considerations. It would seem that you have more tolerance for error doing this than hitting down on the ball some 2" - 4" before bottoming out.

Moe Norman boasted about his level driver head approach into the ball, claiming he kept the path level for some 18" before Impact. This may not have been optimal, but it certainly was accurate for him.

Just asking ....

Frightnening. For me, the biggest disaster is catching a wedge 1 or 2 grooves low. By hitting down a bit steeper, I can at least assure myself of solid contact.
 
How about hitting with a 0º AoA and just nipping the ball with your wedges and no divot? This would eliminate VSP/HSP considerations. It would seem that you have more tolerance for error doing this than hitting down on the ball some 2" - 4" before bottoming out.

Moe Norman boasted about his level driver head approach into the ball, claiming he kept the path level for some 18" before Impact. This may not have been optimal, but it certainly was accurate for him.

Just asking ....

I would think you would hit the ball too high because your overtaking rate would be very high since you really can't use the ground to slow down the overtaking rate.

Most of the touring pros I know like to have somewhat of a piercing ball flight with the wedges.

By my estimation a PGA Tour pro's average AoA with the LW is at -5.9* and with a SW is about -5.6* (based off the Trackman January '09 newsletter and guestimating based off the PW and other iron numbers). How much are we really going to draw or fade an SW?

I think in iron play, particularly wedge play, those who can control the ball height the best on command, typically hit the best iron shots. Now, most of the best iron players I've ever watched hit their irons pretty much dead straight, but all of them could control the trajectory on demand. Tiger is probably the best example. In the pre-affair Haney era he wasn't exactly straight as an arrow, but his traj. window command with his irons was impeccable.





3JACK
 
Moe Norman boasted about his level driver head approach into the ball, claiming he kept the path level for some 18" before Impact. This may not have been optimal, but it certainly was accurate for him.

Just asking ....

Moe may have thought he hit it level, but I would have been willing to bet that he had a very upward AoA with the driver.

For starters, he teed the ball up a mile high. In fact, he could hit it off of an old coke bottle w/o breaking the bottle.

Second, he just never broke tees. I wouldn't doubt that with the driver Moe was probably close to +5* with the AoA.




3JACK
 
Which is why, provided you can hit it solidly, the highest practical VSP and the lowest practical A^A would be my ideal for iron play.

For example: 6 iron, 60-62 VSP 2-2.5 A^A, and 19-21 dynamic loft would take alot of the confusion about where to aim.


Kevin -

How does one control his/her vertical swing plane? Does the lie angle of the club affect this measurement the most?
 
S

SteveT

Guest
I would think you would hit the ball too high because your overtaking rate would be very high since you really can't use the ground to slow down the overtaking rate.

Most of the touring pros I know like to have somewhat of a piercing ball flight with the wedges.

By my estimation a PGA Tour pro's average AoA with the LW is at -5.9* and with a SW is about -5.6* (based off the Trackman January '09 newsletter and guestimating based off the PW and other iron numbers). How much are we really going to draw or fade an SW?

I think in iron play, particularly wedge play, those who can control the ball height the best on command, typically hit the best iron shots. Now, most of the best iron players I've ever watched hit their irons pretty much dead straight, but all of them could control the trajectory on demand. Tiger is probably the best example. In the pre-affair Haney era he wasn't exactly straight as an arrow, but his traj. window command with his irons was impeccable.

Thanks for that explanation. However I base my question on reading a tour pro saying he only nipped the ball and took no divot, but this was many years ago. I related this to my rather steep swing plane (due to my anatomy - tall and slim) and finding it difficult to take a divot. I can easily nip the ball, and in effect scooping it. To achieve consistency, I lower my clubhead speed to limit trajectory height.

The ball flies straight, drops steeply, bounces a couple of times and then comes to a rest. I virtually always aim for the pin because my ball flight is so straight, and I know my distances too. Of course on hard greens it does bounce rather high so I must pull back the landing area.

I have achieved excellent control doing this, but I doubt a pro golfer would do it if he can accurately hit the ball with a descending blow. Many if not most rec golfers will hit fat if they try to hit down, because at higher speed the margin for error is very small. Also, rec golfers will attempt to hammer down on the ball with applied hand force, and this destroys proper release.

It's all a matter of how accomplished you are at controlling your clubhead path and aiming it at the ball while swinging fast. I am not so skilled as to consistently hit down with the same AoA.

Now in hindsight ... I must confess that I may have some negative AoA because I do brush the grass ahead of the ball with no divot. This is how I am able to get good clubface contact on my short irons. I rarely catch the ball low in the grooves, and if I err I hit fat, not thin. A fat shot is disastrous with my steep swing because the divot gets so deep I fear I will bury the club in the dirt ...:D
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Moe may have thought he hit it level, but I would have been willing to bet that he had a very upward AoA with the driver.

For starters, he teed the ball up a mile high. In fact, he could hit it off of an old coke bottle w/o breaking the bottle.

Second, he just never broke tees. I wouldn't doubt that with the driver Moe was probably close to +5* with the AoA.

From my recollection watching him swing his driver, my impression was he was 'windmilling' around his aged, stouter body, particularly starting from 18" behind the teed ball. This produced a rather flat looking swing with outstretched arms ... so a very flat AoA would be understandable.

Yes, he teed up the ball rather high, but this was because he was unable to bend over much in later years. He was very adamant about the flatness of his swing path approaching the ball, and I would accept his 'feel' based on what I saw ... but of course a TrackMan reading would settle everything.

I wonder if Titleist has any launch data on Moe's swing ...hmmmm
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The answer Manz Strikes Again....

How to be a GREAT wedge player with the help of some knowhow, and TrackMan.

You DO NOT NEED a small angle of attack to have a small divot. But you want a "nippy divot."

You need LOTS of forward lean, and some "jump" and you have to get to the "front stick."
 
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