What does lag feel like?

[ClubCaster]

About four weeks ago I flew down to New Orleans to take a couple of lessons from Brian. Brian is a great guy, and the experience solidified my opinion that he is perhaps the best golf instructor in the world. At one point, after working with me on little pitch shots, Brian showed me the video of my swing from face-on. It was the first time I had ever seen myself lag the club on any type of real golf shot.

My hope, when I returned home, was that I'd be able to build on what I'd learned in New Orleans so that I could lag the club properly on my full shots. But so far, I haven't been able to do that. The longer my swing is, the less lag I have heading into impact. Brian taught me to keep my wrists relaxed and to allow them to be set by the transition to the downswing. This works great on little pitch shots because there's no time to lose the lag prior to impact. But on longer shots, my right wrist bends back during the transition, creating lag, but then I lose the lag by the time I get near impact.

Brian worked with me on swinging back and forth, back and forth, to establish a good rhythm and tempo in my swing, but neither that nor anything else I try seems to help me accelerate into impact enough to maintain the lag. In fact, even on the short pitch shots, it seems like I have to "step on the gas" excessively on the downswing in order to create decent lag.

So here's my question for the low handicappers out there: What does lag feel like to you? When describing Clubhead Throwaway in section 7-19 Lag Loading of the Golfing Machine, Homer Kelley wrote, "And instead of driving the Club you find yourself chasing it--and never catching up with it". No matter what I've ever tried, I've never been able to do anything other than try to "keep up" with the club. It's hard for me to imagine that it's possible to do more than that. In a proper swing, does it really feel like the clubhead is offering resistance that you have to drive through impact?

And this question is for Brian, only: Brian, what can you suggest I do to learn to create and retain lag on my full shots? Should I just do nothing else but practice hitting short pitch shots over and over again for a while? Should I just gradually try to work my way up to longer shots? Or should I keep doing the things you taught me on full swings, but focus on finding a rhythm and tempo that works? I'm willing to do whatever it takes, for however long it takes. It would just be nice to know that my efforts will eventually pay off.

Thank you,
Steve (aka ClubCaster)

 

[Brian Manzella]

The longer my swing is, the less lag I have heading into impact. Brian taught me to keep my wrists relaxed and to allow them to be set by the transition to the downswing. This works great on little pitch shots because there's no time to lose the lag prior to impact. But on longer shots, my right wrist bends back during the transition, creating lag, but then I lose the lag by the time I get near impact.

By "lag" do you mean lag PRESSURE or trigger delay/accumulator lag, the amount the clubhead is behind the hands?

All swings should lose SOME of the right wrist bend pre impact, and some swings should lose the accumulator lag earlier than others.

Is the shaft "laying back" (Leaning backward) at impact?

In fact, even on the short pitch shots, it seems like I have to "step on the gas" excessively on the downswing in order to create decent lag.

That's how you do it to some extent. The chage of directions ADDS to the amount of accumulator lag, and creates the lag pressure.

Brian, what can you suggest I do to learn to create and retain lag on my full shots?

Create a situation where ANY real leakage causes the ball to go left.

Should I just do nothing else but practice hitting short pitch shots over and over again for a while?

Absolutely not.

Or should I keep doing the things you taught me on full swings, but focus on finding a rhythm and tempo that works?

Yes.

But obviously, we need to make some adjustments.

 

[tonyrtonyr]

So here's my question for the low handicappers out there: What does lag feel like to you? When describing Clubhead Throwaway in section 7-19 Lag Loading of the Golfing Machine, Homer Kelley wrote, "And instead of driving the Club you find yourself chasing it--and never catching up with it". No matter what I've ever tried, I've never been able to do anything other than try to "keep up" with the club. It's hard for me to imagine that it's possible to do more than that. In a proper swing, does it really feel like the clubhead is offering resistance that you have to drive through impact?

Characterizing a feel in words can be elusive.

I feel lag when I throw a frisbee (imagine trying to put a really tight spin on it). I feel lag when I'm snapping a towel. I really feel lag executing a backhand in tennis: here my wrist stays relaxed and flat as I use my torso. Look at some images of Federer before, during and after impact on a backhand.

Imagine a carnival game where you had to slap a waist-high punching bag with the back of your hand -- to get maximum velocity you would keep the wrist (and arm for that matter) relaxed and whip it through with the hand trailing arm. Brian does just the same with his blue foam angle board on video.

Imagine trying to remove a mitten coated in manure directly into a laundry basket beneath you (you don't want to use the other hand!) . You'd have to raise your arm and feel the lag as you tried generate the momentum to extricate your hand .

 

[self-mastery]

I only attempt to sense lag pressure with the shorter feel clubs from 130 yds and in. Lag is not a concern of mine when using a full swing. I THINK that your problems would end if you spent some time working on your impact alignments. I have my 9 yr old niece hitting beat down irons, so there is hope for you!



Golf = Plane, Path, IMPACT.

Do you know how to use your hands?

Good Luck

 

[ClubCaster]

Characterizing a feel in words can be elusive.

I feel lag when I throw a frisbee (imagine trying to put a really tight spin on it). I feel lag when I'm snapping a towel. I really feel lag executing a backhand in tennis: here my wrist stays relaxed and flat as I use my torso. Look at some images of Federer before, during and after impact on a backhand.

Imagine a carnival game where you had to slap a waist-high punching bag with the back of your hand -- to get maximum velocity you would keep the wrist (and arm for that matter) relaxed and whip it through with the hand trailing arm. Brian does just the same with his blue foam angle board on video.

Imagine trying to remove a mitten coated in manure directly into a laundry basket beneath you (you don't want to use the other hand!) . You'd have to raise your arm and feel the lag as you tried generate the momentum to extricate your hand .

Those are great illustrations tonyrtonyr - thanks! I especially like the mitten coated in manure. Brian showed me something where you feel like you're throwing off your "mannequin arms", which I think is the same concept.

 

[ClubCaster]

I only attempt to sense lag pressure with the shorter feel clubs from 130 yds and in. Lag is not a concern of mine when using a full swing. I THINK that your problems would end if you spent some time working on your impact alignments. I have my 9 yr old niece hitting beat down irons, so there is hope for you!

When the day comes that I finally learn how to lag the club properly, I hope I'll be able to better understand why it is that so many kids seem to learn how to swing a club properly, even when they've never had a lesson. And so few people that take up the game as adults are ever able to swing the club properly, no matter how many lessons they take.

Golf = Plane, Path, IMPACT.

Do you know how to use your hands?

I think so, but I'm obviously doing something wrong.

Good Luck

Thanks!

 

[ClubCaster]

The longer my swing is, the less lag I have heading into impact. Brian taught me to keep my wrists relaxed and to allow them to be set by the transition to the downswing. This works great on little pitch shots because there's no time to lose the lag prior to impact. But on longer shots, my right wrist bends back during the transition, creating lag, but then I lose the lag by the time I get near impact.

By "lag" do you mean lag PRESSURE or trigger delay/accumulator lag, the amount the clubhead is behind the hands?

I guess I'm seeing that I don't I don't have trigger delay/accumulator lag, and I'm thinking that the reason has something to do with not properly feeling lag pressure.

I look at the angle between my right forearm and the clubshaft as my hands pass in front of my right leg approaching impact to see if I have lag. The first picture below shows that angle after my hands went back to around 8:00 o'clock on the backswing. The second picture shows the angle after my hands went further back to around 10:00 o'clock.

Regarding lag pressure - that's something I've been kicking myself for not asking you about during our lessons (it's pretty tough for a doctor to help a patient when the patient doesn't tell him where it hurts). I read a lot about the lag pressure we're supposed to feel on the #3 pressure point (first joint of the right hand index finger). But I never notice any extra pressure there at all. Even on the transition, I feel the weight of the club against my left thumb, but not on the #3 pressure point. The only exception to that is if I cup my left wrist during the transition, in which case I'll feel pressure both on my left thumb and the #3 pressure point. But otherwise my left wrist becomes fully cocked, my left thumb prevents the clubshaft from pressing back against my right hand index finger, and I often feel like the clubshaft bounces back off my left thumb. Does this indicate that I'm doing something wrong? I think you thought my grip was good. Maybe my problems stem from being deformed, and not from being a spastic?

Is the shaft "laying back" (Leaning backward) at impact?

No, not usually. Whenever I see a frame of my swing captured right at impact, the shaft is generally leaning very slightly forward, or at worst vertical.

Should I just do nothing else but practice hitting short pitch shots over and over again for a while?

Absolutely not.

I'm surprised. Glad I asked!

Or should I keep doing the things you taught me on full swings, but focus on finding a rhythm and tempo that works?

Yes.

But obviously, we need to make some adjustments.

One way or another, I'll definitely want to take another lesson from you when you come to the Pacific Northwest. When you find out when you will be here, please let me know. In the meantime, if you think we need to, to make the necessary adjustments, I'd be willing to sign up for a video lesson.

 

[pecky987]

there are some analygies you can use to simulate this effect. throwing a ball side-arm, or skipping stones on water are great examples of what lag feels like. in both cases, the elbow leads the had, the hand leads the fingers. thats the power sequence. try thowing golf balls like they are skipping stones and your skipping them on a lake

 

[Leek]

Characterizing a feel in words can be elusive.

I feel lag when I throw a frisbee (imagine trying to put a really tight spin on it). I feel lag when I'm snapping a towel. I really feel lag executing a backhand in tennis: here my wrist stays relaxed and flat as I use my torso. Look at some images of Federer before, during and after impact on a backhand.

Imagine a carnival game where you had to slap a waist-high punching bag with the back of your hand -- to get maximum velocity you would keep the wrist (and arm for that matter) relaxed and whip it through with the hand trailing arm. Brian does just the same with his blue foam angle board on video.

Imagine trying to remove a mitten coated in manure directly into a laundry basket beneath you (you don't want to use the other hand!) . You'd have to raise your arm and feel the lag as you tried generate the momentum to extricate your hand .

Is that trigger delay (lag) or throwout?

 

[Bigwill]

When the day comes that I finally learn how to lag the club properly, I hope I'll be able to better understand why it is that so many kids seem to learn how to swing a club properly, even when they've never had a lesson. And so few people that take up the game as adults are ever able to swing the club properly, no matter how many lessons they take.

I always thought that kids had better swings than people who take the game up as adults becuase A) More flexibility; B) Less fear of failure, if any, resulting in less tension; C) Kids, particularly young kids, aren't strong enough to muscle the club out of position with their hands; they need to figure out the most efficient way to swing the club. They have to use the pivot to get everything going. The weight of the club, the kid's flexibility, and their lack of strength conspire to keep the clubhead trailing everything else.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I agree 100%, Bigwill. Unconscious maximal efficiency of using the club as it is designed to.

Cheers

 

[Leek]

When the day comes that I finally learn how to lag the club properly, I hope I'll be able to better understand why it is that so many kids seem to learn how to swing a club properly, even when they've never had a lesson. And so few people that take up the game as adults are ever able to swing the club properly, no matter how many lessons they take.
Thanks!

I'm not sure I would call the typical kids swing proper. They get trigger delay because they usually have a club that is too heavy for them. You could get the same feel by swinging a Troy Bar. Try a 7 pounder and swing like a kid, but don't hurt yourself!

 

[self-mastery]

I should have never mentioned my nieces good ball striking, because you guys are going to waste 2 pages debating on why children swing the way that they do

ClubCaster your name is so burdensome...

Worrying about lag is for people who waste their time looking at videos, pictures, and discussing golf swing theory. Throw away your camera and do as I suggested in my first post.

It is impossible not to have lag if you create the correct impact conditions. Use a divot, an impact bag, or even and old sofa (I did this) to learn how impact should FEEL (not look). I did nothing but practice impact for a year and know that Brian doesn't have the flattest left wrist in golf..... because I do Buy flipper, work hard, compress the golf ball into the ground, and forget about casting.

Also close your website

SM

 

[hcw]

or maybe....

I'm not sure I would call the typical kids swing proper. They get trigger delay because they usually have a club that is too heavy for them. You could get the same feel by swinging a Troy Bar. Try a 7 pounder and swing like a kid, but don't hurt yourself!

adults have clubs too light to feel the "proper" way to swing?

 

[sweetser]

adults have clubs too light to feel the "proper" way to swing?

I wonder if there could actually be a case for this. A few years back I doctored an old metal driver, filled the steel shaft with sand, lead taped the hell out of the head. I wanted a heavy practice club, obviously, but when swinging it I found I could really feel the clubhead in the transition, feel the rebound at the change of direction. This helped me understand, kinetically, the transition in my regular swing. I believe Hogan and Moe Norman both used very heavy clubs, maybe there's something to this (?)

 

[birdie_man]

Is that Ochoa doing the Nazi salute?

 

[Bigwill]

Is that Ochoa doing the Nazi salute?

You're an idiot!

(not meant as an insult)

 

[self-mastery]

Is that Ochoa doing the Nazi salute?

NAW... She's just throwing up the #1 to remind herself that she's the best. Positive self-talk.

 

[ClubCaster]

I should have never mentioned my nieces good ball striking, because you guys are going to waste 2 pages debating on why children swing the way that they do

Yeah, my bad for responding to it too. I haven't posted much in any forum lately, and forgot how easily side comments can take a thread completely off track.

ClubCaster your name is so burdensome...

I'm sorry that it has made things so difficult for you.

Worrying about lag is for people who waste their time looking at videos, pictures, and discussing golf swing theory. Throw away your camera and do as I suggested in my first post.

I've put the camera away before. All that has ever done is allow me to delude myself into thinking that I'm not casting any more, when in fact I am. Also, it's not that I don't appreciate your suggestions, but these days I'm not asking for advice from anyone not named Brian Manzella. In my questions to the low handicappers, I wasn't asking for advice. I just wanted to hear what they feel as far as lag pressure is concerned.

It is impossible not to have lag if you create the correct impact conditions. Use a divot, an impact bag, or even and old sofa (I did this) to learn how impact should FEEL (not look). I did nothing but practice impact for a year and know that Brian doesn't have the flattest left wrist in golf..... because I do

My problem is with casting. Not flipping. They're two different issues. I have an impact bag and can wallop the snot out of it, because I don't flip the club. But I do cast it.

All accomplished golfers I've ever seen have close to a 90 degree or sharper angle between their right forearm and the clubshaft when their hands pass in front of their right leg approaching impact. The angle for me is usually more like 120 degrees. That's what I call casting. When the shaft is leaning back at impact, that's what I call flipping. If there are more appropriate TGM or Manzella terms for these things, I'll gladly start using them instead.

Buy flipper, work hard, compress the golf ball into the ground, and forget about casting.

• I own Flipper, and all of Brian's other videos too.
• I work harder than anyone I know at trying to improve.
• I can compress the golf ball into the ground, but that doesn't stop me from casting.
• If everyone magically started lagging the club because they didn't know they were casting, the courses would be filled with scratch golfers.

Also close your website

I haven't updated my website in almost a year and a half, and I've never mentioned it here. That's because I've already heard all of the conventional wisdom on the topic thousands of times, so I'm only listening to Brian now. The only reason I leave the site up is because I still hear from other frustrated golfers all the time that are trying to figure out the same things I am. And some day I really want to be able to write back to all of them and tell them that there is hope.

 

[holeout]

I know this may be some kind of cliched advice, but I know that when I really lag it well, it feels like there's just no right hand "hit" at all. I just feel like I pull the club with my left side/hand/arm only and I can get a lot of delay.