What I knew BEFORE I knew what I know now!

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Brian Manzella

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This will start a nice little thread...

On the left is Lee Trevino (circa '69 or'70) and on The right is Lee in 1971, one of his best years.

On the left is Johnny Miller in '70 or '71 and on The right is Johnny is his heyday of 1974.

What do you see?

What I saw made me a LOT of money before I knew The Golfing Machine, and ......;)
reverseornot.jpg
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
I see a few things:

1) Left heel up and weight more centered in the later, driver pics.

2) More bend in the right wrist in the later pics.

3) A bigger coil with the driver.

1) and 3) could be simply the difference between an iron and the driver, though...

Jeff
 
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hue

New
On the right

1) The backstrokes are longer
2)More Axis tilt
3) Bigger more free hip turn with the left knee kicked in more.
 
jpvegas1

jpvegas1

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Brian:

Just trying to keep it as simple as possible, in the pictures on the left, they both look like they have a slight reverse pivot. It also looks like they allowed their head to rotate right enabling a bigger turn.

I agree, with Jeffy that it may be due to the fact they are hitting irons in the pictures on the left and drivers on the right.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
To be fair—and I always am ;) these guys were good players when the left pic were taken.

But!

The pics on the right CLEARLY have a head that is farther to the right (turned around the BASE of the neck instead of through the head), a LOOK OF LEAN to the their right because of it, and also because of it are more 'behind the ball."

And...they played BETTER with the swings on the right. PERIOD.

That's why I taught the backswings on the right when I was a pup teacher in 1982....

...and still do.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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They are using irons on the left and driver on the right.

This is obviously a very important consideration.

For example, Tiger moves his head a lot more to the right with his driver than his 5 iron.

I'm not saying moving your head to the right is necessarily bad, I'm just saying this comparison is meaningless.
 
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EdZ

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quote:Originally posted by brianman

Ed, you are right.

But, in reality, the Manzella-esque swings on the right are EASIER to do flexibility-wise.
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No doubt. Most people 'need' to let the lead foot come up to make a proper turn and "hit the ball with the back of the lead shoulder".
 
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MizunoJoe

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quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

They are using irons on the left and driver on the right.

This is obviously a very important consideration.

For example, Tiger moves his head a lot more to the right with his driver than his 5 iron.

I'm not saying moving your head to the right is necessarily bad, I'm just saying this comparison is meaningless.
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Good observation. They are staying on top of the ball with the irons to insure a downward strike.
 
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MizunoJoe

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The other thing that jumps out is how coiled up they are. Trevino's going to the End and cranking up so fully should permanently dispel the myth that he was a Hitter.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Leo and Joe...

With all due respect, you are incorrect.

It is OBVIOUS to a teacher who has spent their whole adult life fixing reserve pivots, that these golfers made a CHANGE in their patterns from the left pic to the right.

You know what would SETTLE all this?

Live lessons with real golfers taught both ways...something I have already done.

But...it continues....
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

The other thing that jumps out is how coiled up they are. Trevino's going to the End and cranking up so fully should permanently dispel the myth that he was a Hitter.
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I don't disagree that Lee Buck could have been a swinger, but . . .

I'm not seeing a huge difference in the TOP end vs. the END. Arms seem to be in pretty much the same place to me.

Lee Buck's head moves all over the place. But mostly it moves DOWN.
 
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MizunoJoe

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quote:Originally posted by rundmc

I'm not seeing a huge difference in the TOP end vs. the END. Arms seem to be in pretty much the same place to me.
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His hands are well beyond shoulder height, having gone beyond the Top to the End. He has to retrace the top arc before the straight line effort.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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quote:Originally posted by brianman

Leo and Joe...

With all due respect, you are incorrect.

It is OBVIOUS to a teacher who has spent their whole adult life fixing reserve pivots, that these golfers made a CHANGE in their patterns from the left pic to the right.

You know what would SETTLE all this?

Live lessons with real golfers taught both ways...something I have already done.

But...it continues....
Click to expand...

Common Brian...I'll give yet another example: Jack Nicklaus. In his hey day he said (and he did) lift his left heel off and move his head towards his right foot on the backswing. However, with irons, he didn't lift his left heel (if he did, it was minimal compared with driver) and head was relatively more stationary.

Once again, I agree with you that some golfers would do better allowing their head to move slightly to the right. And I also agree that you probably have more teaching experience than everyone on this forum put together [8D]. But that does not validate your conclusion drawn from those photos.

Have a good day :)

PS: Why not compare pivots when they both using drivers?
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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quote:Originally posted by brianman

Oh yeah, and MORE hip turn and less hip SLIDE to their right.
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Brian....did they start their heads in the centre of the stance and move em there?.....or were they already set more behind the ball?
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by rundmc

I'm not seeing a huge difference in the TOP end vs. the END. Arms seem to be in pretty much the same place to me.
Click to expand...

His hands are well beyond shoulder height, having gone beyond the Top to the End. He has to retrace the top arc before the straight line effort.
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My bad. I re-read your post. I thought you were saying that photo 1 showed Top and Photo 2 showed End. We are in agreement. Sorry for the mix up.

As you say this would be evidence of Swinging since he was a 10-7-G Reverse Looper and since Top Arc is "ideal for longitudinal acceleration."
 
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