What is width? Is it important?

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Two easy questions then. What is width? Is it important?

For those of you with more time on your hands, some more questions and incoherent jabberings…

I thought I knew what width was, but have now heard so many things called ‘width’ or so many different swings called ‘wide’, I am not so sure any more. I thought it was important, but how does having a great big ‘wide’ backswing help get into a better position to hit the ball or generate any more clubhead speed?

Firstly, the definition. The club doesn’t change length and (as long as it doesn’t buckle at the elbow) neither does your left arm. With a good pivot, the point between your shoulder-blades will move away from the target and your shoulders will turn. Unless your right arm has crumpled and dragged the club way inside, at the end of the takeaway, this will look ‘wide’ - greater distance of the clubhead from the target.

There is clearly a difference here from the guy that doesn’t pivot. If the left shoulder hasn’t made it behind the ball, it is not going to look very wide. Is this the point? Is width just an indication that you have made a good pivot? Is it a by-product of not just picking the club straight up with your right hand?

Another definition has been confusing me even more – horizontal distance of the hands from the head away from the target at the top of the backswing. Kind of like JJ Henry. From face-on, there is clearly quite an acute angle between his left arm and the horizontal club. His right arm is folded, elbow more in front of his body, keeping his hands further from the target.

Compare this to classic Davis Love III. At the top he would have width zero. His left arm is pretty much vertical, practically a right angle between his arm and the club. His right elbow is high, more pushed out behind him, and his hands pretty much as high as they can go. But he has always had a 'wide' golf swing and everyone loves saying how it contributes to the distance he hits it.

Seems to me that if they have both made full shoulder turns, Davis’ arms have swung further so this is an extra element he has to add back into the downswing. Is JJ’s more set arms-in-front position, wider by this definition, more reliable as he doesn’t have to do this?

Secondly, does it matter? We all want those angles in the downswing releasing into impact, so why does it matter what you do on the way back?

Classic Davis has this huge arc with the clubhead going back, but if it followed the same path on the way down, he would be throwing away the clubhead and wouldn't hit it out of his shadow. ‘Wide-narrow-wide’ has always been my dad’s mantra. Is this just old school gibberish? Seems to fit when you watch clips of Hogan and the lagging clubhead takeaway is also fitting into this model for me.

So is width in the backswing a way of dynamically kicking off the right sort of chain reaction to have those angles when it matters – in the downswing and at impact?

Thank you for your time if you have got this far. Anything anyone can help with greatly appreciated.
 

ej20

New
When they say width in the backswing,they really mean a late wrist set.If you set the wrist too early,you will lose that "width".

A late wrist set results in a more dynamic loading of the shaft in the change of directions.If you overdo it then it becomes what TGM calls float loading.

I like your dads way of thinking.Wide in the backswing,transition narrow and then wide in the followthough is basically what the golf swing is all about.
 
EJ, I disagree.

Wide has nothing to do with wrist set. It has everything to do with amount of right elbow bend (right handers), extensor action or lack thereof. Wide swings can have early wrist set.

TGM would suggest that extensor action, the constant effort of keeping the right arm straight-ish, helps for a consistant rate of clubface closure. I can't quote the book and I'm too lazy to go look it up.

Wide, narrow, wide is great, just don't let your right elbow angle get too acute on the way down.
 
That had me wondering too as I have definitely seen swings with early wrist sets that are considered wide.

Is that extensor action the... erm... sorry, but that has confused me even more! Seems to me that trying to keep the arm straight will push the right elbow out the back instead of having it fold more infront of the right side of the body than to the side of it.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
From the desk of the Answer Manz.....

We all want those angles in the downswing releasing into impact, so why does it matter what you do on the way back?

For the exact same reason the NO-BACKSWING Swing will never catch on.

So is width in the backswing a way of dynamically kicking off the right sort of chain reaction to have those angles when it matters – in the downswing and at impact?

Not width specifically, but if you make a dynamic backswing, you are one up, so to speak.
 

ej20

New
EJ, I disagree.

Wide has nothing to do with wrist set. It has everything to do with amount of right elbow bend (right handers), extensor action or lack thereof. Wide swings can have early wrist set.

TGM would suggest that extensor action, the constant effort of keeping the right arm straight-ish, helps for a consistant rate of clubface closure. I can't quote the book and I'm too lazy to go look it up.

Wide, narrow, wide is great, just don't let your right elbow angle get too acute on the way down.

Yes,no doubt keeping the left arm straight with extensor action will add width than one where the left arm breaks down but if all other things being equal,a late wrist set will keep that width longer and then the abrupt change of directions can really set and load the shaft tremendously than if the wrists are already set well before the transition.I think the idea behind the lagging clubhead takeaway is the same.It's pretty difficult to set the wrist early with a LCT.

As for the right elbow angle getting too acute,I don't think thats possible if the left arm is kept straight with extensor action.The "narrow" should be the accumulator lag,not the breaking down of the left arm.
 
Yes,no doubt keeping the left arm straight with extensor action will add width than one where the left arm breaks down but if all other things being equal,a late wrist set will keep that width longer and then the abrupt change of directions can really set and load the shaft tremendously than if the wrists are already set well before the transition.I think the idea behind the lagging clubhead takeaway is the same.It's pretty difficult to set the wrist early with a LCT.

As for the right elbow angle getting too acute,I don't think thats possible if the left arm is kept straight with extensor action.The "narrow" should be the accumulator lag,not the breaking down of the left arm.

Shafts don't work this way. They don't load in the backswing and then unload in the downswing. The bending or loading the shaft does at the top is in a completely different plane relative to the clubface than the bending of the shaft through impact. The bending at the top has nothing to do with the bending at the bottom, in other words and for a couple different reasons, shafts don't "load and unload" from transition to impact.
 

greenfree

Banned
No one is going to keep both arms straight to the top of a backswing, so everyone that's anywhere decent will fold their trailing arm to some extent. If they have their arms hanging at address and have a b.s. that doesn't have a collapsing left arm and a good pivot they will be wide as they can be with their arms.

The wrists setting makes some narrowing and the run-up does more narrowing. Then the eventual release of the angles makes the width again, wide, narrow, wide.
 

ej20

New
Shafts don't work this way. They don't load in the backswing and then unload in the downswing. The bending or loading the shaft does at the top is in a completely different plane relative to the clubface than the bending of the shaft through impact. The bending at the top has nothing to do with the bending at the bottom, in other words and for a couple different reasons, shafts don't "load and unload" from transition to impact.

These are just my opinions based on observation of long hitters and using a bit of common sense.

My reasoning behind the more dynamic loading of the shaft with a late wrist set is that the clubhead gets a little bit more of a boost in velocity as it reaches the end of the backswing and combined with a dynamic pivot going the other way,this really loads the shaft on the transition.I wasn't referring to the loading of the shaft at impact or even halfway down as that is probably another thread and a half in itself.

Players who set the wrist early have all tended to be short hitters like Faldo.
 
These are just my opinions based on observation of long hitters and using a bit of common sense.

My reasoning behind the more dynamic loading of the shaft with a late wrist set is that the clubhead gets a little bit more of a boost in velocity as it reaches the end of the backswing and combined with a dynamic pivot going the other way,this really loads the shaft on the transition.I wasn't referring to the loading of the shaft at impact or even halfway down as that is probably another thread and a half in itself.

Players who set the wrist early have all tended to be short hitters like Faldo.

Fair enough :)

I understood you comments as relating stressing/loading/bending the shaft at the transition as being positive or beneficial to impact dynamics - kind of like a buggy whip or fishing fishing pole action. The action of loading the shaft during the transition plays no role in how the shaft performs through impact. So players who set the wrist early are not short (if they are) because of a lack of loading the shaft during the transition. Most folks think the shaft loads and unloads like a buddy whip/fishing pole, and that stress or loading going back will produce a beneficial "unloading" going through - although that seems to make sense, that's not how golf shafts work.

If I understood you comments incorrectly, my bad :)
 

ej20

New
It's not always the case,but long hitters do tend to have wide backswings with late wrist sets...Davis Love III,Tiger,Greg Norman,Bubba Watson,Sadlowski and just about every long drive competitor.I would also say the majority of tour players have late wrist sets.

Players that set the wrist very early like Faldo and Corey Pavin are notoriously short.

A more dynamic loading of the shaft and wrist on the transition sets up the stored power to be unleashed with the snapping of the kinetic chain.
 
A more dynamic loading of the shaft and wrist on the transition sets up the stored power to be unleashed with the snapping of the kinetic chain.

This may be where the difference is - shaft and wrist. My comments are only on the equipment side of this equation. The shaft does not load during the transition. By that I mean it bends due to the degree of force applied by the change of directions, but it does not load, store power, and then unload during the snapping of the kinetic chain.

But even the bend/loading the shaft does do during the transition is quickly lost and plays no part during the release. The shaft bends at the top when the clubface is oriented parallel to the swing plane, so as a reference, the shaft would be bending in the 12:00 to 6:00 plane during the transition (parallel with the face). That bend is quickly lost during the down swing because we know the shaft does not unbend/unload parallel to the face during the release - it bends perpendicular to the face into the ball (9:00 to 3:00). Two different bends and in different planes. One bend/rebound at the transition, and one bend/rebound during the release. Both are separate and unrelated with only the "release bending" having a chance for the shaft to influence the shot.
 

ej20

New
This may be where the difference is - shaft and wrist. My comments are only on the equipment side of this equation. The shaft does not load during the transition. By that I mean it bends due to the degree of force applied by the change of directions, but it does not load, store power, and then unload during the snapping of the kinetic chain.

But even the bend/loading the shaft does do during the transition is quickly lost and plays no part during the release. The shaft bends at the top when the clubface is oriented parallel to the swing plane, so as a reference, the shaft would be bending in the 12:00 to 6:00 plane during the transition (parallel with the face). That bend is quickly lost during the down swing because we know the shaft does not unbend/unload parallel to the face during the release - it bends perpendicular to the face into the ball (9:00 to 3:00). Two different bends and in different planes. One bend/rebound at the transition, and one bend/rebound during the release. Both are separate and unrelated with only the "release bending" having a chance for the shaft to influence the shot.

You are probably right regarding the actual physics in the shaft itself but from a feel point of view,I think the best way to increase power is to create as much inertia on the clubhead with the pivot as one can possibly physically accomplish.This feels like loading the shaft and this loading should feel maintained at impact.

We all know Homer was wrong regarding STLOC but the actual intention of holding shaft flex through impact is absolutely a good thing.I think physics and science is great but it is limited in practical use because feel aint the same as real.
 
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