What the Shoulders do on the Backswing—sometimes....

[Brian Manzella]

A forum member asked the question, "Do the shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine or perpendicular to the ground?"

Obviously, it is not perpendicular to the ground.

But, these days, it seems that EVERY shoulder turn taught is a 90° to the spine at address (rotated), or even steeper (steep) shoulder turn.

Here are two examples of pretty decent golfers NOT turning 90° to the spine.

Now, you can already here I drew the lines in the "wrong place," but...I drew them in a logical place—from the tailbone through the point-between the shoulders at the top.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So.....

"Technically," both of these shoulder turns are "flat" because they turn flatter than 90°.

 

[gmbtempe]

"Technically," both of these shoulder turns are "flat" because they turn flatter than 90°.

So no flatter than those?..........what is "flat" if those are flat?

 

[duckjr78]

Anything less than 90 degrees is called flat?

I would imagine anything less than 90° is flat, 90° is square, and over 90° is upright. We are talking about the shoulder turn here, not the position of the club/overall backswing being flat or upright.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So no flatter than those?..........what is "flat" if those are flat?

Plenty of folks flatter, plenty steeper.

Anything less than 90 degrees is called flat?

Yup.

I would imagine anything less than 90° is flat, 90° is square, and over 90° is upright. We are talking about the shoulder turn here, not the position of the club/overall backswing being flat or upright.

Yes sir.

If you took a young golfer just starting the game, never swung before etc. You would start him perpendicular to the spine. Woudn't you Brian? .

No.

I accept every golfer is different and some may need a flat shoulder turn, but I'd take slightly steeper over slightly flatter anyday. Horses for courses.

Whatever works for you.

 

[gmbtempe]

Brian,

This subject interests me very much and hope my questions are not to simple for your time.

If one has a steeper shoulder turn does that pre-despose them to and OTT or underplane move, in general?

Does one shoulder turn versus the other have any real impact on the alignments of the arms and clubshaft (trying to avoid "book" terms)? I know its much related to the student but just thinking about bigger picture.

Does one have any more merit for kinetic sequencing and speed?

 

[Rick Dandy]

It's Flat, but...

Re: Photo #2 and #4
Left shoulder is closer to the ground at the top of the swing. Don't mess with 'Stallion.

 

[Rick Dandy]

Remember "Pull Back, Run Up, and Jump"?

 

[Ringer]

The shoulders are just joints. It's the clavicle that more or less "rotates" around the spine. However this is still flexible because nothing is "fused" to the spine (unless you've had surgery).

The upper part of our limb that we consider our "shoulder" can actually lift up or drop down depending on the rotation of the upper arm. When you twist the upper left arm (like turning a screwdriver), you in effect lift the left shoulder without even changing the position of the clavicle. This causes you "shoulder turn" to actually flatten out even if the clavicle rotates perfectly at a 90 degree angle to the spine.

Hence why keeping the hands so low and tight to the body is so crucial to the S&T crowd for getting the 90 degree turned look.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Interesting

Interesting

 

[Dariusz J.]

Now, you can already here I drew the lines in the "wrong place," but...I drew them in a logical place—from the tailbone through the point-between the shoulders at the top.

Unfortunately, you drew the spine-covering line in a wrong place, Brian; if you want to picture the relation between shoulder joints and the spine you should not be interested in "tailbone" or lumbar part - but just in thoracic part that corresponds them. When you do it you will see that the perpendicularity is much more real.
Last but not least, the relation is dependent on which body side in the sagittal plane leads the motion during the backswing. Lead side leading flattens while rear side leading makes the relation more upright.

The shoulders are just joints. It's the clavicle that more or less "rotates" around the spine. However this is still flexible because nothing is "fused" to the spine (unless you've had surgery).
The upper part of our limb that we consider our "shoulder" can actually lift up or drop down depending on the rotation of the upper arm. When you twist the upper left arm (like turning a screwdriver), you in effect lift the left shoulder without even changing the position of the clavicle. This causes you "shoulder turn" to actually flatten out even if the clavicle rotates perfectly at a 90 degree angle to the spine.

Very good post. Glad to see someone more here seems to be fascinated with biophysics. One small amendment though for sake of accuracy (it does not affect the merits) - clavicles also can and do rotate around their axis without changing their position relative to the spine and do this during the expansion phase that happens during the backswing.

Cheers

 

[Wilson!]

Hope this is not a silly question. I've seen many pics of young Arnold Palmer. Is there any steeper shoulder turn than his?

 

[SteveT]

Unfortunately, you drew the spine-covering line in a wrong place, Brian; if you want to picture the relation between shoulder joints and the spine you should not be interested in "tailbone" or lumbar part - but just in thoracic part that corresponds them. When you do it you will see that the perpendicularity is much more real.
Last but not least, the relation is dependent on which body side in the sagittal plane leads the motion during the backswing. Lead side leading flattens while rear side leading makes the relation more upright.

Good point, Dariusz .... because the spine experiences a sequential twisting, with the hips and lower spine rotating first and then followed by the upper spine and shoulders. Curiously, the spinal axial rotation is not that great and it occurs somewhere between the thoracic and lumbar sections. This suggests that the 45º X-factor differential is accomplished with some shoulder sliding.

Otherwise, I don't see the significance of a 90º shoulder-spine axial differential.

 

[spktho]

Line drawing on pictures is so arbitrary. When doing measurements on a human being, in order to be as precise as possible, you need to use fixed bony landmarks. I can see where the lines can easily be 5* off in either direction depending on who is drawing the lines, which corresponds to a 10* margin for error. Unless this is acceptable, the use of a 3d motion tracking device is way more precise as long as the operator is consistent.

 

[ej20]

Why do you need to draw lines?You can eye ball a flat or steep shoulder turn.

There is a huge visual difference between say Paul Azinger and Jack Nicklaus.Most fall somewhere in between and trying to distinguish a few degrees here and there is splitting hairs to the extreme.

 

[birly-shirly]

The shoulders are just joints. It's the clavicle that more or less "rotates" around the spine. However this is still flexible because nothing is "fused" to the spine (unless you've had surgery).

The upper part of our limb that we consider our "shoulder" can actually lift up or drop down depending on the rotation of the upper arm. When you twist the upper left arm (like turning a screwdriver), you in effect lift the left shoulder without even changing the position of the clavicle. This causes you "shoulder turn" to actually flatten out even if the clavicle rotates perfectly at a 90 degree angle to the spine.

Hence why keeping the hands so low and tight to the body is so crucial to the S&T crowd for getting the 90 degree turned look.

Ringer - are you saying that, if the arms were lifted higher, then the shoulder turn in an SnT swing would appear flatter?

But also, that in reality, the plane of the turn is the same?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Hope this is not a silly question. I've seen many pics of young Arnold Palmer. Is there any steeper shoulder turn than his?

Yes....my silly golf swing.

Work on it all of the time and still get the steepest shoulders on the planet.




3JACK

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - are you saying that, if the arms were lifted higher, then the shoulder turn in an SnT swing would appear flatter?

But also, that in reality, the plane of the turn is the same?

It's not "lift" but rotation of the upper arm. The clavicle could rotate 90 degrees to the spine, but if you have a rolled upper left arm, it will make the "shoulder plane" appear flatter.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I've tried to work this out myself. Now, I'm not well-trained in biomechanics, but it seems to me that its almost impossible to turn your shoulder flatter than perpendicular to your upper spine....without bending it. Try this.....stand erect, spine vertical. Try to turn your shoulders flatter than perpendicular to your spine, and thus not parallel to the ground, without bending your spine. What am I missing?

 

[natep]

If you stand erect and lift your left shoulder, as if to shrug it, your shoulders will appear to be slanted. When you pronate the left arm in the backswing it has this same effect on the appearance of your left shoulder.