What the Shoulders do on the Backswing—sometimes....

[ej20]

Another point to consider when drawing lines on stills.A lot of good players nearing the top of the backswing begin to flatten their shoulder turn.It may or may not be an indication of how flat it was on the takeaway.Should compare the two points to see what is really happening.

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

A forum member asked the question, "Do the shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine or perpendicular to the ground?"

Obviously, it is not perpendicular to the ground.

But, these days, it seems that EVERY shoulder turn taught is a 90° to the spine at address (rotated), or even steeper (steep) shoulder turn.

Here are two examples of pretty decent golfers NOT turning 90° to the spine.

Now, you can already here I drew the lines in the "wrong place," but...I drew them in a logical place—from the tailbone through the point-between the shoulders at the top.

Both are CF patterns with a rightward shift. Your right with your pictures, Both are push fades.

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

Hope this is not a silly question. I've seen many pics of young Arnold Palmer. Is there any steeper shoulder turn than his?

CP pattern.

 

[Ringer]

If you stand erect and lift your left shoulder, as if to shrug it, your shoulders will appear to be slanted. When you pronate the left arm in the backswing it has this same effect on the appearance of your left shoulder.

Good demonstration.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I personally dont think he would use any one of the three over the other. He would compute and change as he went along and as necessary IMO.

 

[Ringer]

I think the shoulder plan is almost entirely dependent on the spine tilt and the position/rotation of the arms. I don't think you could say it goes vice versa which makes me care very little about it. Fix the tilt and arm swing, and you fix the shoulder rotation (if it even needs to be fixed).

 

[DOCW3]

I think the shoulder plan is almost entirely dependent on the spine tilt and the position/rotation of the arms. I don't think you could say it goes vice versa which makes me care very little about it. Fix the tilt and arm swing, and you fix the shoulder rotation (if it even needs to be fixed).

Is there any suggestion here that the shoulder(s) should not be used to initiate the move back or forward?

 

[Ringer]

Is there any suggestion here that the shoulder(s) should not be used to initiate the move back or forward?

No.

 

[Ringer]

You could be 90 degrees bent over and have a flat shoulder turn. Everything is relative to the spine angle. Well, that's what this thread is about. .

Arms do play a part , but that is not the point I was getting at.

I was asking if either a flat, steep or perpendicular TO THE SPINE ANGLE e.g POSTURE shoulder turn , if one has an advantage over the other, IRRESPECTIVE of anything else happens in the golf swing .

Shoulders initiating move back is a bad idea in my opinion and is pop golf junk reserved to the waste bin . You could be all shoulders and could hardly turn your torso and end up in a terrible mess. So if you must use shoulders this, shoulders that, make sure you have a decent pivot ' cause I've seen loads of hackers that do this shoulders stuff and they can't turn their torso for love or money .

Brian said he woudn't start a beginner with a perpendicular to spine shoulder turn, and all I wondered was IF a flatter or steep shoulder turn (TO THE SPINE ANGLE ) had advantages and what one he favoured . (not that he has to tell anyone that's his business) ! .
I don't give a damn what the arms hands legs etc do!
WOW !

I don't think it's junk at all to use the shoulders. The stretching of the left lat muscle is vital to power. An early pulling of the lat by taking the club back through a "left shoulder back" type of concept would indeed induce a stretch of the lat. But this could also be a key to someone who is pulling with their left shoulder too soon in the forward swing.

Again it all depends on the player. Some people will do better with a left shoulder takeaway, some people will do better with a right arm takeaway, and still others need a twistaway move.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Again, a lot depends on what part in the sagittal plane is leading the motion. If the lead side pushes against the rear side inertia, there must be more linear element involved and usually sliding away from target calls for flatter relation between thoracic spine and shoulder blades. OTOH, if the rear side pulls the linear element may be drastically limited.
Simple physics - if you want to move a heavy object precisely on a circle you rather will accomplish this task by pulling it. Pushing will create a lot of inconsistency.

Cheers

 

[Ringer]

Again, a lot depends on what part in the sagittal plane is leading the motion. If the lead side pushes against the rear side inertia, there must be more linear element involved and usually sliding away from target calls for flatter relation between thoracic spine and shoulder blades. OTOH, if the rear side pulls the linear element may be drastically limited.
Simple physics - if you want to move a heavy object precisely on a circle you rather will accomplish this task by pulling it. Pushing will create a lot of inconsistency.

Cheers

Completely agree.

It's far easier to pull an object in the direction you want it to go than to push it. The trail CG in a pull configuration will follow the force. If you try to push, then the vector of the push has to be precisely directed through the CG of the object being pushed, otherwise it will veer off course.

For example.

We PULL a boat behind our vehicle and the boat goes wherever the vehicle goes. But when we have to back up it becomes 1000% times more difficult to push the boat straight back.

Same power, same objects, same stress point between objects. A pull is easy, a push is VERY complicated.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Completely agree.

It's far easier to pull an object in the direction you want it to go than to push it. The trail CG in a pull configuration will follow the force. If you try to push, then the vector of the push has to be precisely directed through the CG of the object being pushed, otherwise it will veer off course.

For example.

We PULL a boat behind our vehicle and the boat goes wherever the vehicle goes. But when we have to back up it becomes 1000% times more difficult to push the boat straight back.

Same power, same objects, same stress point between objects. A pull is easy, a push is VERY complicated.

Yep. And imagine that pulling vs. pushing contest was usually touched with this silly swinger/hitter crap on these fora...
BTW, good examples, Ringer. I'd add only one thing that I would not try to judge without a physicist what is more efficient when moving on a straight line: pulling or pushing ? I mean what scenario allows to generate more power from shear forces.

Cheers

 

[SteveT]

(Repeat of my message on page 2)

Unfortunately, you drew the spine-covering line in a wrong place, Brian; if you want to picture the relation between shoulder joints and the spine you should not be interested in "tailbone" or lumbar part - but just in thoracic part that corresponds them. When you do it you will see that the perpendicularity is much more real.
Last but not least, the relation is dependent on which body side in the sagittal plane leads the motion during the backswing. Lead side leading flattens while rear side leading makes the relation more upright.

Good point, Dariusz .... because the spine experiences a sequential twisting, with the hips and lower spine rotating first and then followed by the upper spine and shoulders. Curiously, the spinal axial rotation is not that great and it occurs somewhere between the thoracic and lumbar sections. This suggests that the 45º X-factor differential is accomplished with some shoulder sliding.

Otherwise, I don't see the significance of a 90º shoulder-spine axial differential.

 

[DOCW3]

Is this applicable to--does it help explain- Hogan's lateral shift in the move away?

Again, a lot depends on what part in the sagittal plane is leading the motion. If the lead side pushes against the rear side inertia, there must be more linear element involved and usually sliding away from target calls for flatter relation between thoracic spine and shoulder blades. OTOH, if the rear side pulls the linear element may be drastically limited.
Simple physics - if you want to move a heavy object precisely on a circle you rather will accomplish this task by pulling it. Pushing will create a lot of inconsistency.

Cheers