where does the downswing really start from?

[shootin4par]

in having a better understanding of pivot from this site I have been messing around and trying to figure this stuff out. one thing I noticed is this. If you stand in front of a mirror and just think get my weight on my right foot, get my weight on my left foot you will notice something, your HEAD moves right and left. now do the same thing but take a lot of second axis tilt and shift side to side again, your head moves again. in doing this with second axis tile Your head does not have to be on the left side for your weight to be there but your head HAS TO move to the left for your weight to transfet there.

In watching all these good swings if you watch the head movement what happens? the head moves back on the back swing and at the START of the downswing it moves back towards the left. . If this did not happen then weight shift would not occur. So when people say bump the hips, left foot, right knee, etc... starts the downswing, is that really what starts it? shift your head back on the back swing and DONT let it move forward and you will notice that you cant PLANT the left heel, you CANT get to a firm left side, you WILL reverse pivot, etc........

So I ask the question what technically STARTS the downswing, my answer is a head shift left. Even olin browne does this although hardy claims the one plane is not about weight shift, but more about being rotary. Brians pictures prove that

many of you are MUCH more knowledgable then I am so your thoughts are appreciated. I am working towards the same goal of understanding this golf swing, some of you are down that road a further then I am.

thanks
neil

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If your head moves slightly to the right it and reach the top of your backswing position it SHOULD STAY THERE. Until i'd argue roughly both arms straight.

Even though the pic of payne stewart on this sites shows it moving back it shouldn't. Once you have a fixed pivot center you should ROTATE AROUND IT. If you move the head again you have moved the center again and will have to compensate somehow to hit the ball.

Take a look at the tiger video brian put up and look at the lines. His head doesn't move foward until have the ball is long gone.

 

[shootin4par]

tigers head moves a half a head back from address, roughly 3 inches it moves forward that much in the downswing and then tilts away from the ball when the second axis tilt increases. I have put lines on my computer screen on both sides of his head in his WWW.NIKEGOLF.COM swing sequence. check that out to see what I a talking about. once I understood this I looked at many pictures and the head is more over top of the right foot at the top thne it was at address for MOST ALL of the 40 or so pros I looked at.

The pivot center is more like a bottle rocket (someone on here used thatt analogy) rather then a rotisarry chicken. our spine is in the back part of our body. Take a bottle rocket and spin it around, the stick is our spine, This is not nearly the same a a rotisarry chicken.. our whole body does not stay centered, but rather our spine does. Look at brians perfect pivot article, his pictures are pretty clear of this. Look at how much his Junior golfer has his head over top of his right foot at the top of the backswing, his head was not there at address.

But maybe I am not following you and we are saying close to the same thing, but I dont see most of the pros move slightly to the right and then stay there, they move right, left, and tilt

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

In watching all these good swings if you watch the head movement what happens? the head moves back on the back swing and at the START of the downswing it moves back towards the left. . If this did not happen then weight shift would not occur. So when people say bump the hips, left foot, right knee, etc... starts the downswing, is that really what starts it? shift your head back on the back swing and DONT let it move forward and you will notice that you cant PLANT the left heel, you CANT get to a firm left side, you WILL reverse pivot, etc........

This is what i'm referring too. I know how to teach and perform the "perfect pivots" and they are my preferred components for pivots.

However whatever movement it moves on the downswing is extremely small and should be small because you are trying to rotate around a fixed pivot center.

If you tell any average player to move their head first in the downswing you will have one very frustrated student who will likely not improve and not come back.

All you need to do is to keep your head "steady" on the downswing and keep your tail bone ahead of your neck bone and you'll be fine.

 

[shootin4par]

of course I would not tell anyone to move their head to the left on the downswing, this comes NATURALLY. but if they are not moving it on the way back then they will wind up ahead of the ball because the head will naturally move on the down swing. The head does move first though, if you notice tigers starts to dip and go left right as his arms are reachng the top.

 

[joeparr]

Tomesello says you have to move your 18lb head to get tru the swing, thats how you get to the finish. I beleive thats what he said in his video

 

[Bigwill]

It's funny that I ran into this thread. I was at the range today, and couldn't hit a shot to save my life. On the last 5 or 6 balls, out of the blue, I decided to consciously move my head forward on the downswing (hey, I was desperate). Whaddya know, hit the best shots of the day. Don't even know why I thought about trying this, but it worked.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The head.

It COULD stay back where the backswing moved it...

but...

It really should GO BACK TO THE ADDRESS HEAD OR THE IMPACT HEAD on the downswing (BUT NEVER DEAD CENETER OF THE STANCE!).

If you want to do what I am teaching in the "Perfect Pivot" articles.

So, shootin, you are correct. And, for some, Jim is too.

 

[tourdeep]

Hi Shoot.

See what you think on the Tiger head thang from my perspective...

On the downswing, Tiger's low side is the first to move and his head responds to its movement with the slightest of head shift toward the target. The secondary tilt sees Tiger's greatest head movement with a definitve down and then away from the target as he prepares to unleash his power. With follow thru, the head responds and then moves forward.


If i shift forward with the head on the downswing, its doomsday baby, but that's me....

Do you think your former centered /stationary head is a result of your days with studying Jim Hardy's 1ps?

 

[shootin4par]

Hi Shoot.

See what you think on the Tiger head thang from my perspective...

On the downswing, Tiger's low side is the first to move and his head responds to its movement with the slightest of head shift toward the target. The secondary tilt sees Tiger's greatest head movement with a definitve down and then away from the target as he prepares to unleash his power. With follow thru, the head responds and then moves forward.


If i shift forward with the head on the downswing, its doomsday baby, but that's me....

Do you think your former centered /stationary head is a result of your days with studying Jim Hardy's 1ps?

hey tourdeep,
not quite sure what you mean by lowside? expand a little please
now for the easy answer OF COURSE TRTYING to move head as the first move down would be doomsday I AM NOT advocationg that. my main point is allowing it to move OFF the ball on the backswing so the natural left and down movement at the start of the downswing does not kill you golf game.
The head movmement ALLOWS the weight to shift. so saying the hips start first, the left foot plants, left knee out etc... those are what you try to do and I would try as well, but the head moving is what makes that first move effective. In what I THINK I have realized NONE of that woudl have the positive effect it does if the head did not shift forward, remember that I am saying at this point the head is 2-3 inches away from address head . Try standing on your right foot and keep your head over top of it then kick your right knee in, plant left foot, move left foot, bump hips, etc... etc.... if you kept a STILL HEAD your weight would not get to your left side anywhere near like it does with a head that is flowing naturally without conscious thought. Put some tape on a mirror or some reference point and check it out

would I say studying hardy is to blame, no. I got the idea of a steady head when someone put a shaft next to my head and said dont shift forward of this. Since it was touching my head I ASSUMED, and I was wrong for doing so, that I did not want it to shift off that shaft in the back swing. I do feel I understand why hardy says in his "one plane swing" that it is rotary with little weight shift. I do not choose his pattern but maybe some people would. That is all I will say about him because I respect brians new policy

If I missed any part of you question, please reword it, if any part of my answer is unclear just ask and I will do the same. SOmetimes expressing what is in this noggin of mine is hard to type on a computer.


neil

 

[Spike]

Pivot and Start Down

I find that if I set the spine tilt at address and do a rotational pivot starting with the right hip and right shoulder following, the only head movement I see is slightly rotational. If I set my head on the same tilt as my spine it is even less. One of the differences being is that I do the "sit down" idea during the takeaway and not the down swing. This helps to be more rotational than lateral which helps keep the top of the spine from shifting left and the tail bone closer to the target than the top of the spine, like Jim indicated.

I then start down by throwing the clubhead on a down out and through path, using my wrists and hands, which actually causes my head not to move until the right time. That is to say about the same time as the right shoulder begins to pass through.

I know a few people who do this and find very little stress on the body while still being able to generate a lot of force. "Shift happens", but I think it should be merely a result/effect of other things and kept out of the conscious act and at a minimum. imo

 

[Brian Manzella]

InMYopinion...

I then start down by throwing the clubhead on a down out and through path, using my wrists and hands, which actually causes my head not to move until the right time.

Yikes!

I am glad that work for you and a few, but it is very poor advice for most.

_____


I do think it is funny, two guys basically saying to Neil:

"Don't play better with Brian's stuff....please....."

 

[shootin4par]

I do think it is funny, two guys basically saying to Neil:

"Don't play better with Brian's stuff....please....."

for some people it may be a lack of understanding because many people agree with your perfect pivot, but they may not know exactly what the head does while performing it. TIger on nikegolf.com is great because his big ole head takes up the whole screen and that makes it sssooooo much easier to see, rather then most swing sequences where the head takes up 2% of the screen so the head movement looks like a lot less then the body movement, which it is, but gives the illusions that it is not moving as much as it really does. now if anywhere in my description of head movement you disagree, please correct me

 

[tourdeep]

not quite sure what you mean by lowside? expand a little please

my main point is allowing it to move OFF the ball on the backswing so the natural left and down movement at the start of the downswing does not kill you golf game.
The head movmement ALLOWS the weight to shift. so saying the hips start first, the left foot plants, left knee out etc... those are what you try to do and I would try as well, but the head moving is what makes that first move effective. In what I THINK I have realized NONE of that woudl have the positive effect it does if the head did not shift forward, remember that I am saying at this point the head is 2-3 inches away from address head .

Try standing on your right foot and keep your head over top of it then kick your right knee in, plant left foot, move left foot, bump hips, etc... etc.... if you kept a STILL HEAD your weight would not get to your left side anywhere near like it does with a head that is flowing naturally without conscious thought. Put some tape on a mirror or some reference point and check it out




neil

The weight transfer to the lead side is initiated from the low side, whether the trigger is planting of the lead heel, the feet, the drive of the lead knee, driving the trail knee, a bump or slide of the hip,,,and the head movement responds to it. Maybe a tomato/tomatoe, a right shoulder down versus left shoulder up feel thing...

Your main point of head moving off the ball on the backswing, without a doubt, agreed. This too, is an area of change since hooking up with Italian. The thousands of dry and deliberate backswings for this change without overcooking it is starting to pay divdends...

I used to work on keeping the head still with the aid of the reflection from an 11X14 picture frame. And still do the exercise with one exception. I do not work on keeping my head still. Rather, I keep it quiet. My head does not leave the frame, but shifting to the back side of the 8X10 picture occurs. It's not a lot of movement, but it moves a heck of a lot more than in the past. If my head does not move, the swing tightens or becomes a mechanical feel.

Yuppo, keeping the head dead still will have differing effects on weight transfer. Identifying head direction,degree of movement, and outcome at certain points during this move, I am not sure if we agree and certainly will have different results for the individual.

During the transfer while having a cup of tea with Ms. Havisham, I find my head does remain back over the trail knee. I practice as an alleged swinger for max trigger delay, while driving the flywheel with generally, right shoulder down thoughts . Within my 11X14 frame, my head moves down and slightly back, but nowhere the dramatics of Tiger.


I am happy that you are experiencing positve results and it's always a pleasure to hear about the successes!

Making dramatic changes to a swing can be frustrating, but that one shot that is pured as a result of change brings with it an optimistic ray of beautiful sunshine!

 

[Spike]

Yikes!

I am glad that work for you and a few, but it is very poor advice for most.

_____


I do think it is funny, two guys basically saying to Neil:

"Don't play better with Brian's stuff....please....."

Why would you say it is poor advice?

 

[DOCW3]

I find that if I set the spine tilt at address and do a rotational pivot starting with the right hip and right shoulder following, the only head movement I see is slightly rotational. If I set my head on the same tilt as my spine it is even less. One of the differences being is that I do the "sit down" idea during the takeaway and not the down swing. This helps to be more rotational than lateral which helps keep the top of the spine from shifting left and the tail bone closer to the target than the top of the spine, like Jim indicated.

I then start down by throwing the clubhead on a down out and through path, using my wrists and hands, which actually causes my head not to move until the right time. That is to say about the same time as the right shoulder begins to pass through.

I know a few people who do this and find very little stress on the body while still being able to generate a lot of force. "Shift happens", but I think it should be merely a result/effect of other things and kept out of the conscious act and at a minimum. imo

Considering the preset spint tilt and sit down in the back stroke, does the hand throw work because of these differences- Are you essentialy ready to rotate around the front hip at the top (normal downstroke hip slide eliminated)? Also, do you find there is less spine tilt needed in the downstroke or does the sit down in the backstroke add? Do you know of any tour players using this pivot?

Thanks

DRW

 

[Brian Manzella]

What?

Why would you say it is poor advice?

Why would I say WHAT is poor advice?


_____________________?


Thanks,

Brian

 

[self-mastery]

I then start down by throwing the clubhead on a down out and through path, using my wrists and hands.

This pattern has very little stress on the body while still being able to generate a lot of force.

Are you using a version of Tom Tomasello's pattern?

I know for a fact that this works

 

[self-mastery]

Wouldn't the real TGM answer to the OP's question would be: "it depends."

 

[shootin4par]

update
5 days and counting with a "perfect pivot" the ball is flighting very well, penetraing baby draws today was the best range session so far, it was pretty darn good and left me smiling ear to ear
what is the rule around hear? after five days can I take the band aid label off?