Why do better players hook?
- Thread starter Walt
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"better" players don't have the wide open clubface problems slicer's have.
So, thats one vote for face control and one for path. You can have an open clubface and come from inside and hit a big push. So, why don't they have an open clubface? What is it about there swings that tends to close it? Tiger is a better player yet seems to be yelling fore right alot lately. Not trying to be a jerk, but what is it about there swings that stops them from having an open clubface? Is it swivel, not flipping, twistaway, setup, etc.
welshdentist
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Clubface control is what stops you having an open face. See ALL steps in Never Slice Again for Reasons, Brian has a great post on clubface control a while back...
I think the general idea is most golfers start golfing life with an open clubface and the ball goes right. Most generally fix this by swinging left to allow for this (out to in) becoming slicers. These guys tend to need Never Slice again, one extreme side of the Manzella matrix.
When they fix/improve their clubface control as they become better/stronger (Or not in most cases!!!!) they can fix it by naturally squaring the face by a better grip and clubface control or by flipping it
Some end up fixing it to the extent that they over correct the face and start hitting it left, and end up swinging more right to help this. If this gets extreme they are at the other end of the matrix and need Never Hook again.
Flippers need Confessions of a Former Flipper and then NSA/NHS/Soft draw depending on where your no flip swing takes you.
Those that end up flipping to square the face can end up leakage hookers as I did and that can lead to becoming very below the plane as you see the ball starting left and hooking, then start swinging more and more right getting you below plane like you wouldn't believe. This is usually as you may have never been to this site or have access to a trackman/d-plane rules
This can lead to serious below plane issues.
The other side is you can have too open a face/laid off a backswing and try to fix this laid off open position with sheer strength and natural talent. You should generally only do this if you get bored beating people by 10 shots at majors and want a challenge
I think the general idea is most golfers start golfing life with an open clubface and the ball goes right. Most generally fix this by swinging left to allow for this (out to in) becoming slicers. These guys tend to need Never Slice again, one extreme side of the Manzella matrix.
When they fix/improve their clubface control as they become better/stronger (Or not in most cases!!!!) they can fix it by naturally squaring the face by a better grip and clubface control or by flipping it
Some end up fixing it to the extent that they over correct the face and start hitting it left, and end up swinging more right to help this. If this gets extreme they are at the other end of the matrix and need Never Hook again.
Flippers need Confessions of a Former Flipper and then NSA/NHS/Soft draw depending on where your no flip swing takes you.
Those that end up flipping to square the face can end up leakage hookers as I did and that can lead to becoming very below the plane as you see the ball starting left and hooking, then start swinging more and more right getting you below plane like you wouldn't believe. This is usually as you may have never been to this site or have access to a trackman/d-plane rules
This can lead to serious below plane issues.
The other side is you can have too open a face/laid off a backswing and try to fix this laid off open position with sheer strength and natural talent. You should generally only do this if you get bored beating people by 10 shots at majors and want a challenge
welshdentist
New
What makes a good golfer GOOD!!!! by Bmanz
Manzella gold 100% there....
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/7392-what-makes-good-golfer-good.html
Clubface control.
Period.
"Whoa Stallion, what do you mean clubface control? You mean Hinge Action?"
Well, sort of.
What I mean is this:
Most golfers are FLIP slicers—I put 'em at 84% of golfers—and slicers slice because they have an overly open clubface. They flip because either they have no clue, or they are trying to straighten out the slice. Pick one. Or two.
Then there are the leakage Hookers, the one's with a little flip and a right-to-left ball flight—this accounts for about 13% of golfers.
These guys and gals either flip and "anti-swivel" (kind of a chicken wing) to CATCH the closing clubface, or flip it TO turn it over.
So, to review: Group A - Slicers, Group B - Leakage Hookers = 97% of golfers
There is a 2% group of golfers who hook it or slice it (OR BOTH) uncontrollably and don't flip. They have SERIOUS clubface issues.
The world is full of this 2% group. It includes everybody in golf who is strong enough to hit it further than Fred Funk and can "putt it in the ocean" but couldn't "make it" even with a SUPER FLAT left wrist and some amount of snap in the swing.
That leaves 1%.
They all hit it where they are looking, and either win the club championship every other year, or if they can putt, win tournaments.
If they are "the best putter in their state" (<<famous Don Villavaso quote), then they PLAY ON THE PGA Tour!
...as this thread develops, I will expand on these ideas and suggest things that can be done to fix the problem.
Manzella gold 100% there....
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/7392-what-makes-good-golfer-good.html
Clubface control is what stops you having an open face. See ALL steps in Never Slice Again for Reasons, Brian has a great post on clubface control a while back...
I think the general idea is most golfers start golfing life with an open clubface and the ball goes right. Most generally fix this by swinging left to allow for this (out to in) becoming slicers. These guys tend to need Never Slice again, one extreme side of the Manzella matrix.
When they fix/improve their clubface control as they become better/stronger (Or not in most cases!!!!) they can fix it by naturally squaring the face by a better grip and clubface control or by flipping it
Some end up fixing it to the extent that they over correct the face and start hitting it left, and end up swinging more right to help this. If this gets extreme they are at the other end of the matrix and need Never Hook again.
Flippers need Confessions of a Former Flipper and then NSA/NHS/Soft draw depending on where your no flip swing takes you.
Those that end up flipping to square the face can end up leakage hookers as I did and that can lead to becoming very below the plane as you see the ball starting left and hooking, then start swinging more and more right getting you below plane like you wouldn't believe. This is usually as you may have never been to this site or have access to a trackman/d-plane rules
This can lead to serious below plane issues.
The other side is you can have too open a face/laid off a backswing and try to fix this laid off open position with sheer strength and natural talent. You should generally only do this if you get bored beating people by 10 shots at majors and want a challenge
Nice work, mate!
Make this a sticky, please; GREAT POST!
dsmith2296
New
Better players hold angles longer to store energy. Worse players lose angles immediately in the swing. Losing the angle quickly throws the clubhead over the top. That's my theory.
Richie3Jack
New
Part path and part clubface control.
Path causes the curvature, but poor clubface control plays a part as well.
Although I think in the case of good players they are not coming so far outside-to-inside.
Go to the range and most hackers come way over the top. Clubface control seperates the good from the great players, but with the hacker who comes way over the top, the only way to draw that ball would need a clubface at impact that is very closed and they almost are guaranteed to hit a snap hook.
Better players can still come OTT, but it's almost always a lot less than the hacker who does and the only thing that seperates their ballstriking from a great ballstriker is clubface control. Also, coming OTT and steering go pretty hand in hand with golfers and that leads to a slice. So if you're coming over the top, the steering almost forces you to lose clubface control.
3JACK
Path causes the curvature, but poor clubface control plays a part as well.
Although I think in the case of good players they are not coming so far outside-to-inside.
Go to the range and most hackers come way over the top. Clubface control seperates the good from the great players, but with the hacker who comes way over the top, the only way to draw that ball would need a clubface at impact that is very closed and they almost are guaranteed to hit a snap hook.
Better players can still come OTT, but it's almost always a lot less than the hacker who does and the only thing that seperates their ballstriking from a great ballstriker is clubface control. Also, coming OTT and steering go pretty hand in hand with golfers and that leads to a slice. So if you're coming over the top, the steering almost forces you to lose clubface control.
3JACK
welshdentist
New
And the reason is almost always the open clubface. Losing angle and over the top are the body attempt to square it...
But i'm happily Manzella brainwashed....
It all comes down to the open face (almost ALWAYS)
Me too.
Brian's explanation that so much of poor swing techniques are the RESULT and not the cause of an open clubface is, for me, his single greatest pice of teaching. It has forever changed the way I think about the golf swing, and it's made me a much better player.
rogerdodger
New
In trying to cure an underplane swing, it is easy to ignore clubface. I watched NSA 2.0 twice this weekend for the first time in a while. Realized I was flipping it closed due to an open clubface. Twistaway on the downswing, axis tilt, movie screen, has me hitting irons much better. The section on the grip, by itself, is the best instruction anywhere on how to take the proper grip. Even if you do not think you slice, this video will help the underplane flip hooker.
problem for most people, is that to them, a flip/leakage hooker and a true underplane hooker are one and the same thing. they have no idea if they have an open face and are flipping it square/closed, or if the are genuienly dropping it too far and swinging to the right too much. and this is very problematic, as the fixes are quite different.
besides video, what are some ways to tell the difference?
would you not fix a leakage hooker's path first as well?
usually a true hooker has a ball that starts straight or slightly to the right and then hooks. a flip-hooker has a higher ball flight and starts straighter or more to the left.
and you can usually just see in the swing if they are a flipper ora true hooker.
with a leakage hooker, if you train them to lead more with the hands, chances are they'd maintain an open face longer, straighten out the ball flight and improve the contact.
however, flip-hookers can end up getting so below plane that basically their problems become the same. in this case, learning to swing more left will usually drag low point further forward (using the Drop, or Shaking the Sugar) remove the flip and hold the face open longer.
Brian has said this before, and I think the answer lies within:
With poor players, you usually have clubface problems. With good players, you usually have path problems.
Good players have already figured out how to square the face. They either never had open clubface problems to begin with, or they figured out a way to get it more square or closed at some point. In this process, they probably started to hook it as well as hit it farther. Not knowing any better, they keep doing what they're doing and before you know it they either predominantly play a right to left shot or they fight one.
That being said, a lot of really good players completely eliminate any kind of hook from their game at some point. Brian's "Baby Fade" pattern I think is going to be a model for how a lot of really consistent ball strikers swing the club.
With poor players, you usually have clubface problems. With good players, you usually have path problems.
Good players have already figured out how to square the face. They either never had open clubface problems to begin with, or they figured out a way to get it more square or closed at some point. In this process, they probably started to hook it as well as hit it farther. Not knowing any better, they keep doing what they're doing and before you know it they either predominantly play a right to left shot or they fight one.
That being said, a lot of really good players completely eliminate any kind of hook from their game at some point. Brian's "Baby Fade" pattern I think is going to be a model for how a lot of really consistent ball strikers swing the club.
Flipper might be a better starting point. If he starts missing it right after being de-flipped, go to either NSA or SD.
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