Why do people insist ...?

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Ringer

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I know I but heads with a lot of people but that's because I simply won't change my mind until someone can prove it. Sometimes it will take a long time for me to change also, but when the facts are staring me right in the face and I can easily understand them.. I have no problem changing my mind.

I used to be pretty thick skulled about clubhead vs. face angle determining ball flight. Eventually I changed my mind because of the overwhelming evidence in front of me. As I hope everyone here knows it's about 5/7 in favor of the face angle, and some physics suggests more than that.

But in another place I have quite easily dispelled this myth. I made a simple diagram to explain relatively what caused the ball to slice. I then indicated that you could easilly look at the diagram as a face on view of impact and the results would be the same. Basically a slice is no different than a proper decending blow with your irons. If you view it from the top it becomes a slice. View it face on from the side, and it's what makes the ball go airborn.

Eventually this was probably the best argument I'd been able too come up with:

So then you hit the ball into the ground on every swing? You must, because you said the initial direction of the ball is determined by the clubhead path. Since the clubhead path is down toward the earth, you must be hitting the ball into the ground.
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Instead of some thought behind his reply he just said it was dumb to compare descending blow to that of clubhead path left/right.


Does anyone else run into this as often as I do?
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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maybe he thinks that kind of physics works only in the horizontal plane and not the vertical... to him the world is still flat!!
 
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puttmad

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Ringer said:
I used to be pretty thick skulled about clubhead vs. face angle determining ball flight. Eventually I changed my mind because of the overwhelming evidence in front of me. As I hope everyone here knows it's about 5/7 in favor of the face angle, and some physics suggests more than that.
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Steve,
Not being picky here, but it is 75-80% in favour of the clubface (tests by Callaway and others)......:D
 
shortgamer

shortgamer

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I remember when me and Steve argued over an ENTIRE weekend on fgi about this subject. Nobody else believed me either. Thank god for this site:)
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Ringer said:
Article please.
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Steve, you don't need an article...do this little test:

Make a chip with a clubface that is 5* closed and a clubpath that is 5* inside/out. If you do it honest and don't fudge the ball is going to START LEFT, not right, but left.

Do the same for 5* open face and 5* outside/in. Ball will start RIGHT.

I show this to students all the time almost in the first lesson to get their head around what really effects ballflight.
 
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Ringer

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Steve, you don't need an article...do this little test:

Make a chip with a clubface that is 5* closed and a clubpath that is 5* inside/out. If you do it honest and don't fudge the ball is going to START LEFT, not right, but left.

Do the same for 5* open face and 5* outside/in. Ball will start RIGHT.

I show this to students all the time almost in the first lesson to get their head around what really effects ballflight.
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No no Jim.. you aren't understanding. I'm not talking about WHAT affects the ballflight but that puttmad said it's 75-80%. I'm curious where he got those figures.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
What is the point?

The ball starts about 70-80% where the face is pointing at impact.

The ball goes straight if the path of the clubhead is "pointing" at the same place the face is.

The ball curves AWAY from a path that points in a different direction than the face at separation.

That's it.

In a lesson, where I USE ball-flight to help people learn, if they think the 70-80% number is 100%, it helps.

Any other comments on this subject are subject to the full force of my debating skills, and Ginsu knife prose.

:D
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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Ya it's pretty common thinking Ringer. I always just say "How come I can start the ball left with a path out to the right?" Hmmmmm.

Start with a super (duper) closed face at address.....try your best to get the ball not to start left.

Not gonna happen.

Path is not the main factor.
 
R

Ringer

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Brian Manzella said:
The ball starts about 70-80% where the face is pointing at impact.

The ball goes straight if the path of the clubhead is "pointing" at the same place the face is.

The ball curves AWAY from a path that points in a different direction than the face at separation.

That's it.

In a lesson, where I USE ball-flight to help people learn, if they think the 70-80% number is 100%, it helps.

Any other comments on this subject are subject to the full force of my debating skills, and Ginsu knife prose.

:D
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BMan.. where are you getting the 70-80%? I would just like to know the source. I agree, but I would like to know the source and how it was measured. FWIW, 5/7 is 71.4%.
 
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dannyc

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hmmm. I guess I had this all wrong. I thought the path dictated initial direction...is that a popular theory in pop golf instruction? Or am I just making that up?
When i miss, I miss both starting the ball left and starting the ball right...I thought that meant I was swinging too far left of right. But if what you all are saying is true, I guess I am just super handsy, with crummy alignments?
 
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puttmad

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Ringer said:
BMan.. where are you getting the 70-80%? I would just like to know the source. I agree, but I would like to know the source and how it was measured. FWIW, 5/7 is 71.4%.
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Steve,
We had a detailed discussion on this some months ago..
Amongst others callaway confirmed these figure with their own tests. perhaps they have something on their website.
Dia below I got from another site, which confirmed the same, but I didn't keep a record of the site itself..
80-20.gif
 
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puttmad

New
Ringer,
here's another one for you....
Inside-out path, but look how directionally left the ball starts,,, BIG "pull" hook here...

And how many people would analyse this one correctly do you think..."you must be coming over the top etc"....:)

practice_main2.jpg
 
Bill Miracle

Bill Miracle

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SOooooooo...

my driver miss typically starts out really straight and at the end, curves hard right. Just like this font "J" turned upside down.

Does this mean I have the face correct and the path is out to in?????
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
dannyc said:
hmmm. I guess I had this all wrong. I thought the path dictated initial direction...is that a popular theory in pop golf instruction? Or am I just making that up?
When i miss, I miss both starting the ball left and starting the ball right...I thought that meant I was swinging too far left of right. But if what you all are saying is true, I guess I am just super handsy, with crummy alignments?
Click to expand...

those the PGA ballflight laws that they have yet to change (as far as i know). PGA is wrong, everyone else is right on this one. Also this isn't something we figured out, it was a figured out a long time ago i just don't know who.
 
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