Why do some students fail to improve?

[Brian Manzella]

Rundmc, on another thread brought a very good point.

He recalled Steve (four barrels) saying that students were "mentally challenged" if they didn't improve with good information (like what Steve teaches).

Great question.

Lets discuss.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Some Reasons why I, Brian Manzella, don't improve 100% of my students.

• Not enough time with the student, and (or) not over a long enough period of time.

• The student doesn't apply more than about 10% of what they were taught.

• I gave them the wrong information, or what I gave them was at the wrong time for them, or I communictaed it to them in a way that was not the best for the student. In other words—Teacher Error.

• The student won't even check their grip in the manner I show/explain/teach them to. In other words—The Student doesn't even "show up," or won't "show up."

• Everything went fine, but the student jsut wanted to do it "their way," or some other way. In other words—I like Cadillacs, they want a Buick.

• Everything went fine, but in the mean time, someone else told them: "That guy doesn't know what he is doing, you need to go to so-and-so." In other words—I was Sabotaged.

Other than these senarios, I improve about 97.5% of all my students.

 

[Ryan Smither]

...

Some people have:

L.O.F.T. problems...

Lack of commitment issues...

"I can't do that" attitudes...

 

[bts]

No change, no chenge.

They, somehow, just don't change.

 

[bergsey]

What about if the changes aren't compatible with their natural tendencies? i.e. fighting them instead of working with them ?

 

[Steve Khatib]

Great post Brian, these are the reasons I mean:

• The student won't even check their grip in the manner I show/explain/teach them to. In other words—The Student doesn't even "show up," or won't "show up."

• Everything went fine, but the student jsut wanted to do it "their way," or some other way. In other words—I like Cadillacs, they want a Buick.

• Everything went fine, but in the mean time, someone else told them: "That guy doesn't know what he is doing, you need to go to so-and-so." In other words—I was Sabotaged.

Unless you are a 'destination teacher' these are the issues that good instructors face. Our credibility is not there with the genereal public. Due to the ammount of 'noise' out there in golfdom people treat what they read or hear on the radio/tv as gospel. I nearly drove off the road this morning listening to a local pro describe chipping by telling students to put their weight on their front foot and play the ball outside of their back foot to stop scooping. However the guy that listened to that radio station will believe it over my science based(without the terminology) version of educated hands and playing the ball under the hindge etc.
So I have to anticipate being sabotaged and then plan around it(this makes for tougher lessons).

I guess Brian, this a bit like what some have done to you!

Hey Brian tell us about your lessons with PAPA JOHN and Leadbetters influence?

 

[Martee]

I think your list could be long.

If you look at various studies and I don't have any online references at the moment, but one factor seems to surface time after time; Short term memory.

It amazes me the number of students who rely solely on memory to recall what the instructor has provided to them.

How many times have you or you heard an instructor do a mini review say a month or so later with a student and the student say, oh yeah. And before you know it progress is being made. This kind of like if you don't use it you lose it. Most instructional changes can fade quickly if the student has a history of doing it one way, and hasn't practiced the the new way. (Please don't read this to be 'the only way', it is more like correcting a students stance, but he doesn't practice it, doesn't take the time to check it, he will gravitate back to his old stance)

I just think students would gain more by taking notes, reviewing them with the instructor and of course refering to them afterwards.

This isn't to say that instructors may not be the problem, but when you hear a student say, I have been told that before, wonder why I am not doing that, I think the student owns this problem for the most part.

 

[rundmc]

Rundmc, on another thread brought a very good point.

He recalled Steve (four barrels) saying that students were "mentally challenged" if they didn't improve with good information (like what Steve teaches).

Great question.

Lets discuss.

Brian . . . That was sort of my point . . . but not really. I am not here to beef with you. I know that there are differences in opinion and personality with regards to certain other instructors. So be it.

The reason I challenged 4-barrels is because he "took a shot" at the "other side" saying something like "egos and good instruction were incompatible." This was the same dude that said HIS students didn't improve because they were STUPID. He said stupid.

Now you can place me in whatever camp you like paint me whatever color you like. Fine. But my point is THIS . . .

IF THE INSTRUCTOR DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE STUDENT, THEN HOW IN THE WORLD IS THE STUDENT GOING TO "GET IT?"

Now people can diss you all they want about personality or procedures. But one thing you get my respect for is BELIEVING IN YOUR ABILITIES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE STUDENT'S!

So my point is this . . . Would you send your kid to a kindergarden teacher that thought that kids would end up being losers because they were stupid? I sure hope not. If teachers think this way, they should freakin' quit teaching.

That was the point of my response to his jab on "the other side's" ego . . . POT KETTLE BLACK. If you think people can't play golf because they are stupid, you got ego problems. Rather than slinging a turd at somebody else start believing in human potential. God don't make no junk.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah but...

Steve K. (four barrels) will have no problem summitting his teaching for peer review—ON VIDEO—at the MANZIPOSIUM.

Can the "other side" show up without any chance of playing "bury the video."

You have to give me credit, run, I ain't running.

I'll show up ANYWHERE to teach my stuff against ANYONE, for peer or any other kind of review.

Will they?

 

[Steve Khatib]

I agree

For some students Yes I agree, others might feel it takes the fun out of it though. Excellent points Martee.

I think your list could be long.

If you look at various studies and I don't have any online references at the moment, but one factor seems to surface time after time; Short term memory.

It amazes me the number of students who rely solely on memory to recall what the instructor has provided to them.

How many times have you or you heard an instructor do a mini review say a month or so later with a student and the student say, oh yeah. And before you know it progress is being made. This kind of like if you don't use it you lose it. Most instructional changes can fade quickly if the student has a history of doing it one way, and hasn't practiced the the new way. (Please don't read this to be 'the only way', it is more like correcting a students stance, but he doesn't practice it, doesn't take the time to check it, he will gravitate back to his old stance)

I just think students would gain more by taking notes, reviewing them with the instructor and of course refering to them afterwards.

This isn't to say that instructors may not be the problem, but when you hear a student say, I have been told that before, wonder why I am not doing that, I think the student owns this problem for the most part.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Wow

I would love to present at Manziposium for peer review. So I can get feedback from other pros as to how I can improve my teaching, rather than prove how much I know.

Steve K. (four barrels) will have no problem summitting his teaching for peer review—ON VIDEO—at the MANZIPOSIUM.

Can the "other side" show up without any chance of playing "bury the video."

You have to give me credit, run, I ain't running.

I'll show up ANYWHERE to teach my stuff against ANYONE, for peer or any other kind of review.

Will they?

 

[Dobber]

How vs. WHY?

I've had some teachers say, "Do this" and it may work. However, without telling the student WHY it works, and I dont' mean real technical either, the student may not know how to self-fix during lessons with the Pro. Tell the student HOW, but don't forget to tell him/her WHY either...

Dobber

 

[Jared Willerson]

Brian . . . That was sort of my point . . . but not really. I am not here to beef with you. I know that there are differences in opinion and personality with regards to certain other instructors. So be it.

The reason I challenged 4-barrels is because he "took a shot" at the "other side" saying something like "egos and good instruction were incompatible." This was the same dude that said HIS students didn't improve because they were STUPID. He said stupid.

Now you can place me in whatever camp you like paint me whatever color you like. Fine. But my point is THIS . . .

IF THE INSTRUCTOR DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE STUDENT, THEN HOW IN THE WORLD IS THE STUDENT GOING TO "GET IT?"

Now people can diss you all they want about personality or procedures. But one thing you get my respect for is BELIEVING IN YOUR ABILITIES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE STUDENT'S!

So my point is this . . . Would you send your kid to a kindergarden teacher that thought that kids would end up being losers because they were stupid? I sure hope not. If teachers think this way, they should freakin' quit teaching.

That was the point of my response to his jab on "the other side's" ego . . . POT KETTLE BLACK.

Run, sometimes people just vent expecially when trying to teach other people. As a teacher/coach, sometimes the effort you put in does not get reciprocated. Especially if it's a big high stakes test and the kid doesn't care, yet YOUR job is on the line, I say the kid is stupid, that doesn't mean I don't care about his well being and future, it just means I'm pizzed at the whole situation.

Same thing in sports, work and work and work on something all week, yet when the lights go on, it doesn't get done. It'll make you pull your hair out, but I still subject myself to this because I believe in what I'm doing, as does Brian and although I've never met him, Steve.

Teaching is a frustrating business, whether your "the company computer guy trainer" a High School teacher/coach or a golf teacher. You do what you do to try and help, because you believe in it, yet people still hate on you. The whole thing is just stupid.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Run, I treat them all as intelligent until they prove otherwise during lessons by fighting the teacher etc. as mentioned by Brian in above posts. From there what can be said other than deal with each individual at their own level.

This is a tough game and you do need some smarts to be any good if you learn it as an adult vs learn it as a kid. Homer said (opps, I sound like playa brian with the homer stories ) you have master large doses of scientific information (not exact quote) .

Brian . . . That was sort of my point . . . but not really. I am not here to beef with you. I know that there are differences in opinion and personality with regards to certain other instructors. So be it.

The reason I challenged 4-barrels is because he "took a shot" at the "other side" saying something like "egos and good instruction were incompatible." This was the same dude that said HIS students didn't improve because they were STUPID. He said stupid.

Now you can place me in whatever camp you like paint me whatever color you like. Fine. But my point is THIS . . .

IF THE INSTRUCTOR DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE STUDENT, THEN HOW IN THE WORLD IS THE STUDENT GOING TO "GET IT?"

Now people can diss you all they want about personality or procedures. But one thing you get my respect for is BELIEVING IN YOUR ABILITIES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE STUDENT'S!

So my point is this . . . Would you send your kid to a kindergarden teacher that thought that kids would end up being losers because they were stupid? I sure hope not. If teachers think this way, they should freakin' quit teaching.

That was the point of my response to his jab on "the other side's" ego . . . POT KETTLE BLACK.

 

[Steve Khatib]

True, true, true, but not all are intelligent enough to be able to understand the why.

I've had some teachers say, "Do this" and it may work. However, without telling the student WHY it works, and I dont' mean real technical either, the student may not know how to self-fix during lessons with the Pro. Tell the student HOW, but don't forget to tell him/her WHY either...

Dobber

 

[rundmc]

Steve K. (four barrels) will have no problem summitting his teaching for peer review—ON VIDEO—at the MANZIPOSIUM.

Can the "other side" show up without any chance of playing "bury the video."

You have to give me credit, run, I ain't running.

I'll show up ANYWHERE to teach my stuff against ANYONE, for peer or any other kind of review.

Will they?

I gave you credit dude . . . it's in my post.

Now people can diss you all they want about personality or procedures. But one thing you get my respect for is BELIEVING IN YOUR ABILITIES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE STUDENT'S!

I have NEVER said you suck as a teacher. Far from it. See above.

I could care less about reviewing Steve's video. I wouldn't go to him because he may think I'm "too stupid."

I would go see somebody like you who has a selfprofessed 3% error rate and not only believes in HIMSELF but also believes in ME.

I will not bury Steve's video . . . I won't watch it.

 

[rundmc]

This is a tough game and you do need some smarts to be any good if you learn it as an adult vs learn it as a kid. Homer said (opps, I sound like playa brian with the homer stories ) you have master large doses of scientific information (not exact quote) .

NOPE.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Hey Run take a chill pill and relax I have never called you stupid!

 

[rundmc]

Hey Run take a chill pill and relax I have never called you stupid!

Stop jumpin' on the pile. I'm chillin' like a villian. You make a ponkazz comment and the carpet comes callin'.

 

[Loubert]

Hey Run take a chill pill and relax I have never called you stupid!

Stop jumpin' on the pile. I'm chillin' like a villian. You make a ponkazz comment and the carpet comes callin'.

Can this be moved to another thread? Even in the Manzella Forum Renaissance, threads are being quickly diverted into oblivion by personal beefs.

Actually, I’ll start for you it…”Why do some students become a source of frustration for their teachers?”

Lou