I've been curious about TGM since Clampett first came onto the national scene in '78 and TGM gained attention (even have a third edition version). One question I have is why do some top players and teachers that were A1's (Mac O'Gardy, Bobby Clampett, Peter Croker, Jody Mudd...) leave TGM for alternative approaches. Could it be that they really didn't understand TGM or did they take other paths because they couldn't execute? I heard Croker once say after teaching TGM for years he realized his students weren't really getting better and that's why he began exploring a simpler method.
Why do some TGM players & teachers abandon TGM
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Brian Manzella
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All that meant is that Croker couldn't teach.
Before I REALLY knew the book more than just a little, pre-BEN, I could HELP almost anyone's game.
Before I REALLY knew the book more than just a little, pre-BEN, I could HELP almost anyone's game.
Clampett is the real mystery. How could a GSED abandon Ben Doyle and listen to Jimmy Ballard, who as Brian said, doesn't know that the arms go all the way up to the shoulder sockets, and who teaches people to swing toward the target?
Croker, apparently schooled in TGM, now states on his website that pulling is a MYTH, which means that the centrifugal force swing DOES NOT EXIST.
Croker, apparently schooled in TGM, now states on his website that pulling is a MYTH, which means that the centrifugal force swing DOES NOT EXIST.
drewitgolf
New
Centrifugal is a ficticious force. However, most students understands the concept of the force and can feel it, regardless of what we call it.
MizunoJoe,
That could be.
Peter Croker is, however, one of the best TEACHERS that I have ever seen that could actually demonstrate what he was teaching. He strikes the ball beautifully, and on film, his STROKE looks good. He is on Plane, and has nearly a Snap Release, but not with much forward lean of the shaft.
As I recall, they teach kind of a wrist throw, or hand throw right from the Top, with a delayed Pivot on the downswing. The momuntum of the Pushing, Pulls the Pivot around to the finish.
I'm not sure if the Physics of what he says is accurate. He seems to be trying to instill certain FEELS.
I knew some golfers that tried the technique. Some did pretty well with it. Their plane got better. Most, however did develop kind of a Sweep Release, but with Rhythm. Some of the Snap Releasers stayed as they were, and some starting sweeping, as I recall.
Is Peter Croker still in this country?
That could be.
Peter Croker is, however, one of the best TEACHERS that I have ever seen that could actually demonstrate what he was teaching. He strikes the ball beautifully, and on film, his STROKE looks good. He is on Plane, and has nearly a Snap Release, but not with much forward lean of the shaft.
As I recall, they teach kind of a wrist throw, or hand throw right from the Top, with a delayed Pivot on the downswing. The momuntum of the Pushing, Pulls the Pivot around to the finish.
I'm not sure if the Physics of what he says is accurate. He seems to be trying to instill certain FEELS.
I knew some golfers that tried the technique. Some did pretty well with it. Their plane got better. Most, however did develop kind of a Sweep Release, but with Rhythm. Some of the Snap Releasers stayed as they were, and some starting sweeping, as I recall.
Is Peter Croker still in this country?
lagster,
His website, crokergolf.com, shows a presence in Australia, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.
He has a big fan club in this country, and he claims that by TRYING to release from the top you ACTUALLY get a delayed release. There are people who actually PAY for this stuff.
His website, crokergolf.com, shows a presence in Australia, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.
He has a big fan club in this country, and he claims that by TRYING to release from the top you ACTUALLY get a delayed release. There are people who actually PAY for this stuff.
drewitgolf
New
Croker is "Pulling your Chain", don't be a "Pushover".
mgjordan
New
Croker is a good teacher. I have taken lessons from Martin Green (www.mgga.net) who worked as Croker's partner. They teach you to push from the top and ATTEMPT to release early/throw the clubhead at the ball. He does a demonstration where they take a bicycle flag and go to the top, push on it, and it lags. The harder he pushes and earlier he tries to release, the more lag the flag has. His approach is like driving a nail with a hammer. You don't think about pulling this or that, you think about taking the head of the hammer into the nail as hard and fast as possible. The key is learning to push your hands forward at a faster rate than you are pushing the clubhead forward. You are moving the hands, not the clubhead. Your hands let you feel the clubhead because of the pressure points. It is a little unconventional in the INTENTIONS, but the swing looks normal and it works. Martin Green is the best ball striker I have ever personally seen. He DOES NOT mi**** shots and he has very good control over the ballflight. His swing is also visually appealing. The end concept is that the late hit and pull look is a result of pushing and trying to release early (if you do it correctly) and it does work. However, they are incorrect when they say you can't pull on the club and move it. The bottom line is that there are some pulling forces and some pushing forces in every swing. Even a swinger (puller) will push their right arm away from them to create extention and their legs will push against the ground at transition to stablize their body for rotation. Does the horse pull the cart or does the horse push against the harness causing the cart to be pulled?
drewitgolf
New
Tip 16
"Trying to keep right wrist bent at impact creates a loss in power.
...fully uncock both hands in the impact zone, the right wrist will straighten
Straighten as will the left. Which makes for a square solid hit"
Doesn't sound like the golf machine to me. Actually, if he added (which he doesn't) don't swing on plane he would be 0-3 in the imperative's department.
"Trying to keep right wrist bent at impact creates a loss in power.
...fully uncock both hands in the impact zone, the right wrist will straighten
Straighten as will the left. Which makes for a square solid hit"
Doesn't sound like the golf machine to me. Actually, if he added (which he doesn't) don't swing on plane he would be 0-3 in the imperative's department.
I believe that what Peter Croker says certain parts of the Stroke FEEL LIKE, are not what he wants them to LOOK like. It still seems like a variation of a Hitting Procedure to me.
I do agree that there are many great players that have a PULLING sensation, so that must be OK also. SWINGING--PULLING(ROPE HANDLE) HITTING--PUSHING(AXE HANDLE)
I do agree that there are many great players that have a PULLING sensation, so that must be OK also. SWINGING--PULLING(ROPE HANDLE) HITTING--PUSHING(AXE HANDLE)
mgjordan
New
"Tip 16
"Trying to keep right wrist bent at impact creates a loss in power.
...fully uncock both hands in the impact zone, the right wrist will straighten
Straighten as will the left. Which makes for a square solid hit"
Doesn't sound like the golf machine to me. Actually, if he added (which he doesn't) don't swing on plane he would be 0-3 in the imperative's department."
Again, when hitting a nail with a hammer would you try to keep the right wrist bent? I sure wouldn't. I would try to get rid of all angles and hit it as hard as I could. If you video taped the hit, my right wrist would be bent evewn though I wasn't trying to. Croker said this because he doesn't want you trying to hold onto anything.
Also, note that he said "TRYING to keep the right wrist bent" not actually doing it. Intentions are different from reality.
"Trying to keep right wrist bent at impact creates a loss in power.
...fully uncock both hands in the impact zone, the right wrist will straighten
Straighten as will the left. Which makes for a square solid hit"
Doesn't sound like the golf machine to me. Actually, if he added (which he doesn't) don't swing on plane he would be 0-3 in the imperative's department."
Again, when hitting a nail with a hammer would you try to keep the right wrist bent? I sure wouldn't. I would try to get rid of all angles and hit it as hard as I could. If you video taped the hit, my right wrist would be bent evewn though I wasn't trying to. Croker said this because he doesn't want you trying to hold onto anything.
Also, note that he said "TRYING to keep the right wrist bent" not actually doing it. Intentions are different from reality.
mgjordan
New
No, he wants you to hold onto lag pressure. That is what you are pushing against. That is why he doesn't feel it is necessary to work on keeping the right wrist bent. It is pretty much guarenteed that if you have lag pressure that you will have a bent right wrist. He doesn't mention the right wrist and holding and angle to it because his whole concept is based on simplicity and freeing the mind. He wants you to keep your attention on your hands, have the hands lead the swing, and push the clubhead through the ball with your hands. He also works hard on teaching you to uncock the left wrist correctly. If you uncock the left wrist all the way down through the ball, it is very hard to have a bent left wrist.
This pretty much sums it up:
http://www.crokergolf.com/englisch/multimedia/articels/golfdigestarticle1.htm
This pretty much sums it up:
http://www.crokergolf.com/englisch/multimedia/articels/golfdigestarticle1.htm
DivotDelight
New
In the section on extensor action(6B1D), TGM talks about 'stretching' the left arm through the number 3 PP, mimicking pulling on both ends of a rope. Maybe he is using stretching and pushing interchangably? SInce he is TGM trained, I am giving him the benefit of a doubt.
I agree with Matt, new teacher. Couple things after reading the url posted by mgjoran.
Now I know where that silly “downswing blackout” came from. If Crocker is so big on moving the clubhead, why push it? Hard to believe PC still believes one iota in TGM. Homer felt it was important to monitor the hands, the grip end of the club, not the clubhead. What finer way is there to command how a club performs then as Homer taught, the left hand controlling the FACE and the right controlling the HEAD. Beats guessing what the clubhead is doing way out there on its own.
Why limit a swing by demanding you only push? Bad. In 6b1d (sounds like I’m talking to myself -lol)- the effort to straighten the bent Right Arm still does not move the Left Arm. And that left arm ain’t pushing, its pulling.
PC hates “late hit.” Good. Maybe it was Yoda who said, “no late hit, on time hit.” Works for me.
Now I know where that silly “downswing blackout” came from. If Crocker is so big on moving the clubhead, why push it? Hard to believe PC still believes one iota in TGM. Homer felt it was important to monitor the hands, the grip end of the club, not the clubhead. What finer way is there to command how a club performs then as Homer taught, the left hand controlling the FACE and the right controlling the HEAD. Beats guessing what the clubhead is doing way out there on its own.
Why limit a swing by demanding you only push? Bad. In 6b1d (sounds like I’m talking to myself -lol)- the effort to straighten the bent Right Arm still does not move the Left Arm. And that left arm ain’t pushing, its pulling.
PC hates “late hit.” Good. Maybe it was Yoda who said, “no late hit, on time hit.” Works for me.
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