Why does "TGM Hinge Action" produce different ball flights?

[rprevost]

I have asked this question before but did not get a response. It is on-topic here. When I have tried the various types of TGM hinging, particularly so-called horizontal hinging and angled hinging, I get different ball flights. I understand Brian's argument and am not challenging it. I accept that the impact interval is too short for hinging to have a real effect. Could one give a D-Plane explanation for why one gets different ball flights using the various kinds of TGM hinging, horizontal, angled, and vertical? From the experience of the golfer, TGM hinging has a real effect on ball flight. Obviously, it is not the hinging that is causing the difference. What is? Is it something like this: when one sets up for horizontal hinging (which never actually happens), the club face ends up being more closed at impact; when one sets up for angled hinging, the club face is more open at impact? Would the particular hinging (again simply from experience/feel of the golfer) affect the degree of down and out the club face is traveling? Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, or to defend TGM. What I am trying to do is to understand in D-Plane terms what I experience when I use TGM hinging. Can one translate, so to speak, from one language to the other, and vice versa?

 

[Brian Manzella]

cuz....

From the experience of the golfer, TGM hinging has a real effect on ball flight. Obviously, it is not the hinging that is causing the difference. What is?

Ball flight on sweetspot strikes, are caused by delivered loft & lie, and TRUE path at impact.

ANYTHING that changes the above, changes the ball.

Like:

Try to exhale at impact.

or

Keep your right foot rolled at impact.

They are (sub) cause, the change in the D-Plane is the effect.

When you TRY TO "full roll," you have to prepare to do it sooner than impact.

Any so it is for other "hinge actions," real or imagined.

Why do I like sliders to have weak grips?

Get it?


Is it something like this: when one sets up for horizontal hinging (which never actually happens), the club face ends up being more closed at impact; when one sets up for angled hinging, the club face is more open at impact? Would the particular hinging (again simply from experience/feel of the golfer) affect the degree of down and out the club face is traveling? Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, or to defend TGM. What I am trying to do is to understand in D-Plane terms what I experience when I use TGM hinging. Can one translate, so to speak, from one language to the other, and vice versa?[/QUOTE]

 

[rprevost]

Thanks for your response. I am not sure that you answered my question. I understand that changing delivered loft & lie, and TRUE path at impact will change the ball flight. What I trying to understand is what does horizontal hinging as experienced by the golfer, or preparing to horizontal hinge, do to the D-plane; or in your words, how does preparing and executing a "full roll," change the D-plane? It must some how change the delivered loft & lie or the true path at impact, hence the change in ball flight; but exactly how does it change them?

Another way to frame my question would be in terms of the recent January Trackman article. The author contrasts the old ball flight rules with the new D-plane ball flight rules. Consider though a competent golfer--not me--who grew up with the old ball flight laws and who learned to control the ball reasonably well with what he knew, that is, the old ball flight laws. Well, given what we know now, that competent golfer was manipulating the D-plane pretty well because he could get the ball to go where he wanted. Is it possible to explain in D-plane terms why the old ball flight laws were reasonably successful for good golfers?

An analogy: Newtonian physics works reasonably well within a particular framework, but we understand that Newtonian physics is not correct; moreover, contemporary physicists can explain the success of Newtonian mechanics using relativity theory. What I am looking for is an explanation for why horizontal hinging is successful, when we know the theory behind it (the club face closes during the interval of impact) is false.

 

[goley]

Heres my shot at it for ya

The ball know two things
1. the true path of the club head
2. where the clubface is pointing

When you "Horizantal Hinge" you are actually making the club face more closed to your true path.
When you "Angle Hinge" the face of the club is square to the true path.
And when you "Vertical Hinge" the face is open to the true path.

For simplicty sake lets just assume that you hit the ball at point zero and your true path matches you plane line.

The first makes the ball start left and curve left
The second makes the ball fly straight
The third makes the ball start right and curve right

The bigger the difference between the true path and where the face is pointing, the more side spin and curve you get.

So if you understand the Dplane, the change in the position of the face is what makes the ball act differently with each "hinge" motion. The ball is not getting its different spin due to the "hinge" motion, it is spinning because the clubface is pointing in a different direction in each motion.

Hope this helps

 

[JeffM]

I think that rprevost has asked an important question.

I cannot understand why horizontal hinging produces a lower ball flight with a draw tendency if the clubface is not closing through impact. How does one rationally explain this phenomenon in D-plane terms?

Goley - you suggested that a golfer is making the clubface more closed to the true path when using horizontal hinging. When is this happening - pre-impact, during impact, or post-impact? How could it happen pre-impact? If it doesn't happen pre-impact, and the clubface is not closing during the time period of ball-clubface collision, how do you explain the ball flight pattern associated with horizontal hinging?

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

rprevost asked the following question-: "What I trying to understand is what does horizontal hinging as experienced by the golfer, or preparing to horizontal hinge, do to the D-plane; or in your words, how does preparing and executing a "full roll," change the D-plane? It must some how change the delivered loft & lie or the true path at impact, hence the change in ball flight; but exactly how does it change them?"

I think that this is a critically important question and I would like to learn the "correct" answer to this question?

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Prepare.

When you look at the video below, you will see me END UP in the follow-through, with different clubface positions.

1. Horizontal-ish
2. Angled-ish
3. Vertical-ish

I did a GREAT JOB of tracing a similar Plane Line.

All the balls took off on VERY different lines.

Was the "Hinge Action"??

Nah, the face was more open in 2 than 1, and 3 than 2 & 1.

I think I'll have a coffee.

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Looking at the pic below, you will see:

Pic 1 - Yellow Line = clubface, Red Line = ball flight
Pic 2 - Green Line = clubface, Purple Line = ball flight (w/ pic 1 graphics still up)
Pic 3 - Red Line = clubface, Yellow Line = ball flight (w/ pic 1 & pic 2 graphics still up, but faint)

There is a different amount of open clubface on each becuase I was PREPARING for my follow-through.

That IS NOT "Hinge Action," but since "Hinge Action" doesn't much exist like the book definition, it will suffice for some.

Not me.

 

[jmessner]

Not sure I know exactly what you're looking for Jeff, but I my visualization is that the true path remains the same but the clubface angle relative to true path changes which causes a different D-plane. Also, a closed clubface at impact reduces loft by somewhere between a 0.5-1 degree (depends on lie angle) per degree closed clubface angle (just due to geometry). Reverse for open face.

Jay

 

[Michael Finney]

if the rest of life was as easy as this thread, my life would be even better....

 

[welshdentist]

When you employ what you feel is hinge action, you manipulate the clubface prior to impact to produce your desired hinge action. This affects the D-Plane for the shot.

Thats the shortest sentence I could put that into

 

[KOC]

Can't separate the difference...

From the book….7-10 "Hinge Actions" describe and control the manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval...and Homer talked some "Feel" of roll; no roll; reverse roll though I still don't know...

Although at that old Manzella’s video, at least it was talking about all three hinge action…., now, that is not “Hinge Action”...I can still accept still those...PREPARE
<O
Anyhoo, if we are going to PREPARE for different look of follow-through….say Horizontal-ish and Vertical-ish or in between, how you teach or call that so?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Anyhoo, if we are going to PREPARE for different look of follow-through….say Horizontal-ish and Vertical-ish or in between, how you teach or call that so?

I call it roll, no-roll, and reverse roll, and I make no crazy assumptions about it not happening DURING impact.

 

[rprevost]

Thanks for all your responses. This has been very, very helpful to me for understanding the realities, or the lack there of, of hinge action. Goley and WelshDentist, Thanks for the simple explanation; Brian, Thanks for putting it up in pictures!

The answer to JeffMann's question then is that, indeed, the preparation for TGM hinging causes pre-impact changes to delivered lie and loft, something to the extent as jmessner suggests, which would be sufficient to cause the difference in ball flight.


All this suggests, then, that TGM hinging could be a useful teaching tool for learning to manipulate the D-plane (as Newtonian physics is useful in its place); however, the proper understanding of the effect on ball flight is not any closing of the club face through impact, but rather that the real work of hinging is done in preparing to hinge which causes the change in the delivered lie and loft of the club at impact.

 

[savydan]

One day most golfers/students will understand just how short a time period 4 ten-thousands (0.0004) of a second really is.

Until then, it may help to think of it as instantaneous.

 

[JeffM]

Brian,

That was a superb demonstration.

I find your demonstration/explanation very plausible.

According to the TGM book, the left hand should be vertical at impact with all three hinging actions and the left hand should only have variable degrees of roll-over action post-impact (for the different hinge actions). However, I could never understand how one could suddenly/abruptly transition from a vertical left hand position at impact to a roll, no-roll or reverse roll action immediately post-impact. I always suspected that in preparing for different hinge actions, "something" was happening to the left hand immediately pre-impact so that is relatively over-rolled when using a horizontal hinging action and under-rolled when using a vertical hinging action. When using the different hinging actions at a golf practice facility, I always found that I was actually opening or closing the clubface pre-impact - as you demonstrated. I never knew whether it was due to an inefficient swing action performance, or not. I was always wondering whether professional golfers could perform hinge actions much more efficiently than me, so that they could efficiently transition from a vertical left wrist position as described by Homer Kelley in the TGM book.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

On re-reviewing your video demonstration, there is something that troubles me. You are "seemingly" only hitting the ball straight when using angled hinging.

Can you start the ball straight towards the target when using all three types of hinging actions and only produce a slight draw at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using a horizontal hinging action, a slight fade at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using angled hinging and a higher ball flight trajectory with a greater tendency to fade at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using vertical hinging?

What you have really demonstrated in your swing video is that you have the capacity to over-roll your clubface in order to pull-hook the ball left, and under-roll the clubface to push-slice the ball to the right - by pre-impact hand manipulations. However, that doesn't represent my understanding of what a post-impact hinging action is supposed to accomplish - a straight ball flight with slight variations in ball flight characteristics at the end of the ball flight trajectory.

Jeff.

 

[dannyc]

brian, are you using that shaft behind the plane board to keep you above the plane, or was it just an additional visual for the video?

 

[Frizit]

brian, are you using that shaft behind the plane board to keep you above the plane, or was it just an additional visual for the video?

I would assume its so no one would say he manipulated the path to get the ball to change directions.

 

[JonWil]

What you have really demonstrated in your swing video is that you have the capacity to over-roll your clubface in order to pull-hook the ball left, and under-roll the clubface to push-slice the ball to the right - by pre-impact hand manipulations. However, that doesn't represent my understanding of what a post-impact hinging action is supposed to accomplish - a straight ball flight with slight variations in ball flight characteristics at the end of the ball flight trajectory.

Jeff.

I believe if the target line is to the flag and remained there, Brian could simply variably adjust his swing plane and with his demonstrated three swings, draw one, fade one and hit one straight to the hole.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

On re-reviewing your video demonstration, there is something that troubles me. You are "seemingly" only hitting the ball straight when using angled hinging.

Can you start the ball straight towards the target when using all three types of hinging actions and only produce a slight draw at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using a horizontal hinging action, a slight fade at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using angled hinging and a higher ball flight trajectory with a greater tendency to fade at the end of the ball flight trajectory when using vertical hinging?

What you have really demonstrated in your swing video is that you have the capacity to over-roll your clubface in order to pull-hook the ball left, and under-roll the clubface to push-slice the ball to the right - by pre-impact hand manipulations. However, that doesn't represent my understanding of what a post-impact hinging action is supposed to accomplish - a straight ball flight with slight variations in ball flight characteristics at the end of the ball flight trajectory.

Jeff.

It isn't possible; the ball stays on the face for roughly 0.00004 (maybe 1 too many zeros but you get the point) and the face during that same 0.0004 is not rotating no where near enough to influence any type of ball flight.

It is simply the D-plane; where was the face/path/downward strike going at impact.

That's it.