why dont more people
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
It spelled B-R-I-A-N....
It has to do with what REALLY IS a HAnd controlled pivot.
Sme folks have it DEAD wrong.
I'll post more in a bit.
It has to do with what REALLY IS a HAnd controlled pivot.
Sme folks have it DEAD wrong.
I'll post more in a bit.
shootin4par
New
sounds interestingBrian Manzella said:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
What "hand control pivot" IS and ISN'T
Like anything I may ever say on this forum—especially when they are sure to be attacked somewhere else—I don't say it UNTIL I have done my research.
This time is no different.
"Hand Controled Pivot"
Homer Kelley wrote a great book—The Golfing Machine—that I am an Authorized Instructor of at the Highest Level.
I often don't discuss the book directly on this forum, which features my ability to make golf's difficult concepts EASY to understand and perform.
But, from time to time, I feel the need to report on the research that I have done on a particular part of the book.
Today, I come to you with the TRUTH about the "Hand Controled Pivot" procedure.
It has been explained elsewhere in terms that sound something like this:
"Just leave your Pivot right there at Address. Take your hands to where ever they are suposed to go, and they will make the pivot move precisely the right amount and at the right time."
Well folks, that would be exactly correct.
A quick look a picture in the book will give you the idea that Dianne—Homer's model—was never in some of the positions that are often taught.
Because, Homer assumed people would read the book. As in:
BOLD by Brian Manzella, PGA, GSED
"The Hands are the "Command Post" for all Feel processing. As the
Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to
the Club..."
"These motions are to be completely uncompromised by
Arm and Club motions. Execution of a Preselected Pivot should be iden-
tical with or without Arms and Club to avoid any awkward "hitch"
in the Turn when actually playing. The Pivot involves twisting the body
and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a
motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a pre-
selected sequence and spacing of whatever Components are being em-
ployed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the
Pivot."
So....
1. The Quarter Back DICTATES to his offensive players. He doesn't MOVE them.
2. This pivot should be THE SAME with or WITHOUT the arms and club.
WHAT??????
I though the Pivot ONLY moved if the hands or RIGHT FOREARM moved it. How would the Pivot know where to go if it was asked to make an ARMLESS, HANDSLESS, RIGHT FOREARMLESS motion.
Simple, it HAS TO BE TRAINED separately, and preferably BEFORE you even train the HANDS.
So.....
When you DO EDUCATE the HANDS—then and ONLY THEN—can they be ALSO TRAINED to "DICTATE to the Pivot," ie the PIVOT then "LISTENS TO the HANDS."
"Never move your hands with your hands." —Ben Doyle
The players learn their movements on the old Green Bay Power Sweep, they were TRAINED by Vince Lombardi.
Then—and only then—could they MOVE CORRECTLY when they were DICTATED TO, by Bart Starr.
Got it?
Good.
Like anything I may ever say on this forum—especially when they are sure to be attacked somewhere else—I don't say it UNTIL I have done my research.
This time is no different.
"Hand Controled Pivot"
Homer Kelley wrote a great book—The Golfing Machine—that I am an Authorized Instructor of at the Highest Level.
I often don't discuss the book directly on this forum, which features my ability to make golf's difficult concepts EASY to understand and perform.
But, from time to time, I feel the need to report on the research that I have done on a particular part of the book.
Today, I come to you with the TRUTH about the "Hand Controled Pivot" procedure.
It has been explained elsewhere in terms that sound something like this:
"Just leave your Pivot right there at Address. Take your hands to where ever they are suposed to go, and they will make the pivot move precisely the right amount and at the right time."
Well folks, that would be exactly correct.
A quick look a picture in the book will give you the idea that Dianne—Homer's model—was never in some of the positions that are often taught.
Because, Homer assumed people would read the book. As in:
BOLD by Brian Manzella, PGA, GSED
"The Hands are the "Command Post" for all Feel processing. As the
Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to
the Club..."
"These motions are to be completely uncompromised by
Arm and Club motions. Execution of a Preselected Pivot should be iden-
tical with or without Arms and Club to avoid any awkward "hitch"
in the Turn when actually playing. The Pivot involves twisting the body
and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a
motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a pre-
selected sequence and spacing of whatever Components are being em-
ployed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the
Pivot."
So....
1. The Quarter Back DICTATES to his offensive players. He doesn't MOVE them.
2. This pivot should be THE SAME with or WITHOUT the arms and club.
WHAT??????
I though the Pivot ONLY moved if the hands or RIGHT FOREARM moved it. How would the Pivot know where to go if it was asked to make an ARMLESS, HANDSLESS, RIGHT FOREARMLESS motion.
Simple, it HAS TO BE TRAINED separately, and preferably BEFORE you even train the HANDS.
So.....
When you DO EDUCATE the HANDS—then and ONLY THEN—can they be ALSO TRAINED to "DICTATE to the Pivot," ie the PIVOT then "LISTENS TO the HANDS."
"Never move your hands with your hands." —Ben Doyle
The players learn their movements on the old Green Bay Power Sweep, they were TRAINED by Vince Lombardi.
Then—and only then—could they MOVE CORRECTLY when they were DICTATED TO, by Bart Starr.
Got it?
Good.
shootin4par
New
good post,
make a lot more sense then the hands moving the pivot.
make a lot more sense then the hands moving the pivot.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
golfie said:
I hardly EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER have to teach someone extensor action.
I will admit "sometimes" it is useful, especially when you are trying to teach someone who has a very flat backswing to get more "up" on the turned shoulder plane because they ALL BEND THEIR LEFT ARM to get there. So you have to introduce the "stretch" to them to get the left arm "taunght" again.
But other than that, waste of time.
tongzilla
New
More on Hand Controlled Pivot
Few points I'd like to make...
You CANNOT have a Hand Controlled Pivot if you are Monitoring the Pivot. "Monitoring" means awareness, feedback, sensation, etc...in other words, where your mind is.
So assuming that you are thinking about something in your swing (of course, you don't have to think about your swing at all), such as your feet, knees, hips, shoulders,...i.e. your PIVOT, then it's NOT a Hand Controlled Pivot procedure.
Now this is the hard part to get...the above is true no matter what you are actually doing in your swing! It doesn't matter if your swing looks like Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Moe Norman...if you are Monitoring the Pivot, then it's Pivot Controlled Hands, not Hand Controlled Pivot.
Until you understand this, you will never "get it".
Few points I'd like to make...
You CANNOT have a Hand Controlled Pivot if you are Monitoring the Pivot. "Monitoring" means awareness, feedback, sensation, etc...in other words, where your mind is.
So assuming that you are thinking about something in your swing (of course, you don't have to think about your swing at all), such as your feet, knees, hips, shoulders,...i.e. your PIVOT, then it's NOT a Hand Controlled Pivot procedure.
Now this is the hard part to get...the above is true no matter what you are actually doing in your swing! It doesn't matter if your swing looks like Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Moe Norman...if you are Monitoring the Pivot, then it's Pivot Controlled Hands, not Hand Controlled Pivot.
Until you understand this, you will never "get it".
Effective Training
So, if the "mind is in the hands" the pivot training had better be effective!?
Should students be hitting balls before the pivot is correct? Is training more effective without a club? What is the thinking on time allocated to pivot training and is strectch band as a training device a good way to go?
DRW
So, if the "mind is in the hands" the pivot training had better be effective!?
Should students be hitting balls before the pivot is correct? Is training more effective without a club? What is the thinking on time allocated to pivot training and is strectch band as a training device a good way to go?
DRW
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Like I said....
Ah—yeah.
That's what I said.
Although, you can say it too, Leo.
But here it is again
1. TRAIN YOUR PIVOT FIRST
2. THIS PIVOT HAS TO BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS
3. TRAIN ('educate') YOUR HANDS
4. TURN OVER CONTROL OF YOUR PIVOT TO THE HANDS
5. EDUCATE YOUR HANDS TO CONTROL THE PIVOT WOULD BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS....
AND HANDS!!!!
tongzilla said:
Ah—yeah.
That's what I said.
Although, you can say it too, Leo.
But here it is again
1. TRAIN YOUR PIVOT FIRST
2. THIS PIVOT HAS TO BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS
3. TRAIN ('educate') YOUR HANDS
4. TURN OVER CONTROL OF YOUR PIVOT TO THE HANDS
5. EDUCATE YOUR HANDS TO CONTROL THE PIVOT WOULD BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS....
AND HANDS!!!!
EdStraker
New
Brian Manzella said:Ah—yeah.
That's what I said.
Although, you can say it too, Leo.
But here it is again
1. TRAIN YOUR PIVOT FIRST
2. THIS PIVOT HAS TO BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS
3. TRAIN ('educate') YOUR HANDS
4. TURN OVER CONTROL OF YOUR PIVOT TO THE HANDS
5. EDUCATE YOUR HANDS TO CONTROL THE PIVOT WOULD BE THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT ARMS and HANDS....
AND HANDS!!!!
Brian's post is spot on, the pivot has to be trained first, before a golfer learns a hand-controlled pivot.
It cracks me up when I hear people say the pivot will automatically respond to the hands. A person can move the arms independently without the body turning at all. This should be a clue that the pivot needs to be trained too.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
EdStraker said:
Which is exactly what most high handicappers do and that's why you have to teach them to wallop it with their pivot.
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