Working on the Fade

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Question: Has anybody who has learned to hit a fade had trouble with the ball not starting far enough left?

I've been working on the power fade off the tee but I'm having trouble getting the ball going far enough down the left side to start. I'm having a lot of shots starting out more in the middle of the fairway. I feel like I'm seeing the correct amount of fade but the overall ball flight path is not starting off left enough. Aiming further left doesn't feel correct to me but I may be wrong.

Regards!
 
I think part of it is a trust issue. For instance, I played Sunday and the wind was about 20 mph and we had a cross-wind to the right for a bunch of holes and it took me a few holes to realize that on a normal width fairway, I need to aim at the left rough to find the center of the fairway.

There's the obvious D-Plane issue as well, but the trust factor usually hurts me a bit.




3JACK
 

ZAP

New
I second the trust part. As someone who went from playing a pretty big hook to a fade aiming and trusting were BIG parts of the puzzle.
 

greenfree

Banned
Question: Has anybody who has learned to hit a fade had trouble with the ball not starting far enough left?

I've been working on the power fade off the tee but I'm having trouble getting the ball going far enough down the left side to start. I'm having a lot of shots starting out more in the middle of the fairway. I feel like I'm seeing the correct amount of fade but the overall ball flight path is not starting off left enough. Aiming further left doesn't feel correct to me but I may be wrong.

Regards!

Face.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Level Strike Fade.

I hit a fade with my driver as a rule.

On a level strike, here is the deal.

A outside-in (to the target) path of 3.5° and a clubface of 2° closed to the target (but 1.5° open to the path) is my favorite combo.

This requires a SWING that is about 15 yards to the left of the center of the fairway.

You can aim anywhere you want.

Me and Lee (Trevino), aim 20 yards left, swing inside-out to that, and unwind & tilt like hell.
 
Thanks very much for the feedback. I'm guessing that my face isn't closed enough (or at all). Feels like the swing is outside - in eough. I've been amazed at how learning to hit a nice draw has helped improve my feel for hitting the fade which is the shot I really want to command off the tee.
 
In general, do professional golfers aim farther left and right than the rest of us?

I ask this for a two reasons. First is my attempting to understand the D plane.

Second, I'm reminded of Jack Nicklaus's strategy in his book where he says he typically aims 20' left of a pin/target and tries to hit a 10' fade. Hit is straight, he's got a 20 footer for birdie. Hit it perfectly and he's got a 10 footer, push it and he's got a tap in.

This intrigues me because the pros (and good ams) almost always have the ball moving toward the hole. The rest of us seem to have the ball moving away from the target. I know that with the players I usually play with this is true. Even guys who are decent ball-strikers rarely start the ball online and work it toward the target. Way more often, a ball is started toward the target and works away from it.

Is there a mental hang up with us that makes us start the ball at the target? Do we think we are better than we are? Are we embarassed about how far we really have to aim to play our shot? Or is it just all because we don't fully understand the D plane?

Thoughts?

Even in putting, the (pro) miss is on the high side of the hole. A chip shot you are trying to leave below the hole for an easier putt would be an exception, but you get the idea
 
In general, do professional golfers aim farther left and right than the rest of us?

I ask this for a two reasons. First is my attempting to understand the D plane.

Second, I'm reminded of Jack Nicklaus's strategy in his book where he says he typically aims 20' left of a pin/target and tries to hit a 10' fade. Hit is straight, he's got a 20 footer for birdie. Hit it perfectly and he's got a 10 footer, push it and he's got a tap in.

This intrigues me because the pros (and good ams) almost always have the ball moving toward the hole. The rest of us seem to have the ball moving away from the target. I know that with the players I usually play with this is true. Even guys who are decent ball-strikers rarely start the ball online and work it toward the target. Way more often, a ball is started toward the target and works away from it.

Is there a mental hang up with us that makes us start the ball at the target? Do we think we are better than we are? Are we embarassed about how far we really have to aim to play our shot? Or is it just all because we don't fully understand the D plane?

Thoughts?

Even in putting, the (pro) miss is on the high side of the hole. A chip shot you are trying to leave below the hole for an easier putt would be an exception, but you get the idea

I think that it comes down to the face, especially since your average am always aims the face at the target (because that's what we've always been told to do). If the clubface is pointed at the target at impact, then the only way it will work toward the target is if the path matches it, and you get a dead straight shot. I was never able to move the ball toward the target, especially with a fade, until I stopped aiming the clubface at the target.

There may also be the psychological element of "what if I hit it straight?" The worst feeling is to stand up over a shot and not really know what it's going to do. In a situation like that, you're not going to be comfortable aiming way off the target, because you're scared that the ball won't curve, and you'll shoot where you're pointed. So the subconscious (or even conscious) decision is to not aim too far away from the target, in case you hit that miraculous straight shot.

I believe that most good players have the awareness and the hands to swing in such a way that the ball starts away from the target and moves toward it, even if they have the wrong intellectual concept of the ballflight laws. That intuitive sense of where the face is in relation to the hands, and the ability to use that relationship to create the spin and trajectory that they want, is what separates them from the rest of us, just like some people would never be a dead-eye jump shooter, no matter how many hours they put in. But understanding how face and path interact to produce a certain ballflight, even if it's just a rudimentary understanding, gives you a chance at producing the ballflight you want, if you can apply that knowledge, IMO.
 
I believe that most good players have the awareness and the hands to swing in such a way that the ball starts away from the target and moves toward it, even if they have the wrong intellectual concept of the ballflight laws. That intuitive sense of where the face is in relation to the hands, and the ability to use that relationship to create the spin and trajectory that they want, is what separates them from the rest of us, just like some people would never be a dead-eye jump shooter, no matter how many hours they put in. But understanding how face and path interact to produce a certain ballflight, even if it's just a rudimentary understanding, gives you a chance at producing the ballflight you want, if you can apply that knowledge, IMO.

Definitly can't rule out God given natural ability.
 
I think that it comes down to the face, especially since your average am always aims the face at the target (because that's what we've always been told to do). If the clubface is pointed at the target at impact, then the only way it will work toward the target is if the path matches it, and you get a dead straight shot. I was never able to move the ball toward the target, especially with a fade, until I stopped aiming the clubface at the target.
QUOTE]

This has to be a huge part of it. I still catch myself aiming the face at the final target and trying to adjust my stance to adjust the path. I'm working on NSA because I have been a leakage hooker my entire life. Now I'm able to hit a real draw with all my clubs, but I have no idea where (how) to aim. I feel like I want to aim at the right side of each fairway/green and if it draws, great, but if it doesn't, the straight shot won't hurt to bad. I guess I need to aim the face at the right side of the fairway/green and my stance should be slightly closed with a driver and open with everything else?
 
I think in general D plane terms for a fade, you want the face aiming where you want to start the ball(or as Kevin says a little left of where you want it to start) and your stance line or especially your swing path more left of that. The farther you swing left with the same club face angle, the more the ball will fade.
 
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I think in general D plane terms for a fade, you want the face aiming where you want to start the ball(or as Kevin says a little left of where you want it to start) and your stance line or especially your swing path more left of that. The farther you swing left with the same club face angle, the more the ball will fade.

In addition, the more lofted clubs need you to swing MORE to the left.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
It rarley plays out that way. The higher VSP of a short iron has much more influence than attack angle for most players. You aim more left usually on longer clubs. If you hit down the average amount you can aim the same amount left for every club in the bag.
 

lia41985

New member
What a freaking thread. A great topic, an appearance by Brian, and great contributing posts by everyone. This is he best golf site. Period.

Only thing needed is Brian to post that video of him from Pebble when he went out and played with Adam Mallory. That was a great thread too.
 

lia41985

New member
Why do you think this? This isnt really true in most cases.
This is the reason why I was, essentially, pulling all my short irons and wedges and not doing that with the other clubs. I still think the extra left is needed for some shots played with wedges, namely, sand, pitch, and lob. By the way, understanding this concept has really helped my putting where I feel like I'm playing a sort of level strike along the lines of what Brian wrote. I hit my putts visualizing a stroke that emparts a sort of high fade type spin.
 
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