Ben Hogan's REAL Secret is...................

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Brian Manzella

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Bird was also 6'9"!!!!!!!

Our Mike Finney, who was about 5'2"/105 at age 15, was as fundamentally skilled a basketballer as he could be at that age.

Son of a Dad who was a college player and coach, he was even tutored a couple of times by PETE MARAVICH when he was a youth.

All the BASKETABLL talent in the whole wide world, would have not made Mike a Rival's Blue Chipper. He was too short. He had wobbly knees (they would both eventually be reconstructed) and after his Freshman year at Jesuit High in New Orleans, he concentrated on golf. By age 17, he was ranked #9 in the USA by Golf Digest.

He grew to 6'0" by age 20, and by then had rekindled his love of basketball. At the expense of a possible better shot at the PGA Tour, Mike played basketball almost daily at the infamous LSU Gym Armory pickup games that featured future NBAers like Chris Jackson (later Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf) Avery Johnson and Shaq (yes, that Shaq). Mike, more than held his own. He had BASKETABLL talent. But most of all Michael David Finney is an ATHLETE, in my opinion, a world-class one. A talented footballer, All-American Golfer, could score on Avery Johnson, etc. etc.

But Mike Finney is no PHYSICAL SPECIMAN. In fact, besides a little 'hops' before the knee surgeries, he has next to NO PHYSICAL ABILITY.

Huh?

You see, sports (and golf) fans, I believe there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Athletic ability and Physical ability, and all this talk of Tiger's athletic ability is just that, talk.

Need more?

Stanley Bains Stopa, has been in the top 3 players in the New Orleans area since 1968! He won the USGA Publinks, The NCAA Division 2 title and missed his PGA Tour card twice by 1 shot.

When Stan heard that Mac O'Grady had missed his card 17 times, he did some math. "Got him by two," Stan exclaimed. He may have been the best golfer EVER who TRIED to play the Tour and never did.

Stan looks great at 53. He works with world-renown trainer Mackie Shilstone, is in great shape and looks like a recent retiree from the NFL. At 6'2" and 210, he could have been an outside linebacker or Split end.

Except for one little detail. Stan has ZERO athletic ability. If you threw him a football from 20 yards—easy—he might hurt himself.

Stan Stopa has great physical ability, is a super golfer, but has no ATHLETIC ABILITY.

Steve Roach was a year or two ahead of me in high school. He could play nose tackle on a 5A football team, and would have been a good little QB, because he had great football instincts, was an accurate passer and was a shifty runner. He was a WAY above average point guard in Basketball, and a good infielder in baseball. He was an ATHLETE!

Steve Roach at age 17, was 5'8" 230, ran about a 5.3 forty yard dash and had a 12inch vertical jump.

Tiger Woods is 6'2" 195—all-muscle—probably a 4.9 or 4.8 forty and I am quite sure can dunk a tennis ball.

Brian Manzella is 5'9" 205, 43 years old, had an Achilles tendon tear this year and two knee scopes in the past 8.

Tiger Woods would have NO CHANCE guarding me on any football field in America. I would turn him around so many times, he'd REALLY blow out that knee.

Don't let the "smooth taste (or big belly) fool you," your host can ball. I once scored 38 in a basketball game, and 26 in a football game. I made All-City on my 8th grade CABBAGE ball team, and as late as LAST YEAR, was still holding MORE than my own at New Orleans' infamous Norman Playground organized pick-up football game.

Average 40 time at Norman: 4.7; Average Age: 20; Average color: Dark.

Tiger can give me 6 a side on the course EVEN THOUGH I could give him 10 a side on the lesson tee.

So what?

So this: Golf talent exists! Eye hand coordination, vision, concentration, the ability to repeat a pattern, the ability to generate 130mph of clubhead speed, etc.

Don't tell me that the PGA Tour players are great athletes, just because they are great golfers. I know better. They MAY be great athletes INDIVIDUALLY, but as a group...

They would have a tough time at the Gym Armory or at Norman playground.
:D:);)
 
I doubt Hogan had an IQ of 180-190 despite the stories. The odds are against Hogan being smarter than Einstein. I'd guess he was as smart as the average UC Berkley professor. Take a guess. Ok, the mean score there supposedly is 118.

That said, I'm not the only person who believes there are different types of intelligence. Resolve and persistance show the strength of a mind. Ever see an IQ test for that? I like to think I have some of that, myself. Know of anybody who stuck to learning one "song" on the guitar for 30 yrs? In retrospect, it wasn't the best way to learn guitar...lol.

Regarding a very firm handshake...again no correlation to anything. Lots of out of shape business people have VERY firm handshakes, because they've thought about it, and realize the preception it shows strength of character. It is also cultural to a degree. Ali, for example had a handshake like a little girl (from personal exp.) , as do many Muslims (I've heard). Same thing for Navajos (personal exp.). They think squeezing someone's hand hard is showing off.

I've only see a few people who have lost their grip on a club to the point it went "a-flyin'."

I'm not trying to put Mr. Hogan down. I think he had a few important physical assets like flexibility, but that doesn't make him an athlete.
Consequently, I'm even more impressed with his accomplishements. He also did a lot more than develop the best golf swing of all time.
 

ej20

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

I doubt Hogan had an IQ of 180-190 despite the stories. The odds are against Hogan being smarter than Einstein. I'd guess he was as smart as the average UC Berkley professor. Take a guess. Ok, the mean score there supposedly is 118.

That said, I'm not the only person who believes there are different types of intelligence. Resolve and persistance show the strength of a mind. Ever see an IQ test for that? I like to think I have some of that, myself. Know of anybody who stuck to learning one "song" on the guitar for 30 yrs? In retrospect, it wasn't the best way to learn guitar...lol.

Regarding a very firm handshake...again no correlation to anything. Lots of out of shape business people have VERY firm handshakes, because they've thought about it, and realize the preception it shows strength of character. It is also cultural to a degree. Ali, for example had a handshake like a little girl (from personal exp.) , as do many Muslims (I've heard). Same thing for Navajos (personal exp.). They think squeezing someone's hand hard is showing off.

I've only see a few people who have lost their grip on a club to the point it went "a-flyin'."

I'm not trying to put Mr. Hogan down. I think he had a few important physical assets like flexibility, but that doesn't make him an athlete.
Consequently, I'm even more impressed with his accomplishements. He also did a lot more than develop the best golf swing of all time.
David,

It's fascinating that you bring up your interest in the guitar.After 30 years of practising,do you think your technique rivals John Williams?

I hope you can see where I'm going asking this.
 
I'll amplify on what I believe your point is. There are some people who could practice singing for 30 yrs. and wouldn't be able to sing half way decently. I'd probably be in that group. I think I had at least some guitar ability because I "feel the music". It's pretty darn frustrating to have missed the boat by not having any music training during the critical years, which are a lot younger than we used to think. Ironically, some people think I'm quite talented with the guitar (my repertoire is now larger). It's almost like a duffer saying "good shot" when you you practically miss hit a ball. In other words, I'm no John Williams.

But we do know this. John Williams and all the other greats (that I am aware of) practiced like a son of a gun, probably at a level similar to Hogan. Guitarists, like golfers require a certain confluence of events: 1) usually being introduced to the activity at an early age 2) being born into a golf or guitar family or golfing environment (that would include Hogan's childhood job caddying, meeting Bryon Nelson early on, etc.) 3) a natural penchant for perfectionism 4) the ability to singlemindedly pursue a specific goal to the exclusion of all or most extraneous enticements.

I will also agree, and this is hard for me to accept because I believe so much in the value of focused work, that there are muscial geniuses out there....e.g., kids who at age THREE can play music instruments with mastery. I just never felt Hogan or any other golfer showed that level of mastery at such an early age. Michael Wie, is the closest we have, probably. Maybe if Hogan had developed his swing fully by age 9...but he didn't. It took him a long, long time.
 

ej20

New
I think it would be highly unlikely that a 12 year old John Williams would be performing at virtuoso levels.He may have showed talent beyond his age.These gifted individuals however,have no limit to improving unlike us mere mortals,music or golf wise.
 
This type of debate is what it is all about.
Brian, I hear what you're saying about physical vs. athletic. I just think it's still a matter of definition. If you win a gold medal in the Olympics, are you an athlete? I think so. Some just do shot-put or shoot a bow and arrow. I think they are. Are they the best overall athletes in the world? NO WAY. Most of my good friends are golf pros and ex-college teammates at UCSB. And every last one of them can shoot a basketball, throw and catch a football, play pool and darts and table-tennis, etc..
David, I usually enjoy your ideas even if no one agrees with them, but this time you are wrong about Hogan not being strong or athletic. He was as strong as a blacksmith. It takes a lot of power to move like the Hawk did. It takes a lot of strength to stablilize a swing that dynamic.
dss, interesting idea about him working it out in all the down time. I'll use that. Thanks.
 
Just wandered into this discussion today.

My dad and I got to meet Ben Hogan about a million years ago (really late 60s early 70s). My dad was employed by the US Army at the time and we were traveling around Texas (visiting Army medical supply depots).

While my dad was not a golfer he knew the name and got a chance to meet Hogan and shake Hogans hand and say Hi. (Wished I would have thought of an autograph). I think Hogan was around 60 or so....the one thing my dad said was......strong damn grip and my dad was no slouch in the grip area either (6 feet, 225 lbs).

Hogan probably had the strength where it was needed, when it was needed.
 
I'd say Hogan, before he aged a lot indeed WAS stronger than most golfers. But probably so was Gary Player, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson. I don't think Hogan would have scored heads and shoulders above any of them & maybe the same or less. Kinda' would be interesting to see
Hogan and Palmer going mano-a-mano, huh? How about Brian and Hogan? My money wouldn't be on Hogan, lol!

Kevin, re grip, I suspect Hogan gave it some thought, as he probably did with most things he did. It's also, kinda' a Texas thing, or used to be. I'm sure he had relatively strong hands, though.

Anyway, I often think about Hogan's still great swing when he was really old. That is proof positive for me to never blame my physcial attributes, coordination, etc. If I mi**** the ball, I never blame myself, I blame what I'm doing or not doing & I recommend the same to others.

Hogan wrote in his book, I think it's in the introduction, of his own belief in the average golfer's ability to develop a really fine swing. It is possible, and many in fact, are able to do it. Conversely, there are tens of thousands of very athletic guys who can't swing the club for beans.

I witnessed O.J. Simpson's pathetic swing. Quite the hacker (!). Ever seen Charles Barkley have a go? Yipes!
 

ej20

New
I believe Hogan was a highly skilled athlete for his size.How strong can a 5'8" 135lb guy be?

He had the most accurate,repetitive swing under pressure ever.That's what I admire about Hogan.But he would be below average in distance by todays standards.Can anyone confirm what Hogan's clubhead speed was?
 
a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.
 

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.

Before the accident, Hogan often won long driving contests or came in second to the legendary Jimmy Thompson. If he played today, I can think of no reason why he wouldn't perform at the same level.
 
quote:Originally posted by ej20

But he would be below average in distance by todays standards.Can anyone confirm what Hogan's clubhead speed was?

you are probably right in your assumption. judging by how little clubhead lag hoagan had he might even be below average, espicially considering how he also broke down at impact.
 

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.

Before the accident, Hogan often won long driving contests or came in second to the legendary Jimmy Thompson. If he played today, I can think of no reason why he wouldn't perform at the same level.

I agree. Given today's improvements in clubs, balls and greenskeeping, he'd be right there. I say golf is one sport where the OLD SKOOLER's could definitely hang if not beat the NEW SKOOL.

Wonder if Hogan would change is course managment? Blast it a long way into the rough and try to make birdies like Tiger? Or would he continue to surgically cut the course apart? Somehow I think we would continue the route of precision . . .
 
i think most would agree that snead was very long he had been nown to hit 350 on occasion he was the hank kuhne of the day slender with that big turn and blazing speed. if you watch the shells wonderful world of golf though hogan hit it past snead just as much as snead hit it past hogan and this was with his newer shorter swing you can see from the old pics and what his peers said that he was long probably longer than sergio why do you think his first book was entitled power golf.
 

ej20

New
quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.

Before the accident, Hogan often won long driving contests or came in second to the legendary Jimmy Thompson. If he played today, I can think of no reason why he wouldn't perform at the same level.
When Hogan was competing most golfers were around the 5'8" size because that was considered the ideal height back then.Today the best golfers are at least 6 foot and 180lb.No big athletes played pro golf because lack of prize money.

I admire Hogan as much as anyone but a good big guy will always beat a good little guy in sport.You don't pit Mike Tyson against Sugar Ray Leonard.
 
quote:Originally posted by ej20

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.

Before the accident, Hogan often won long driving contests or came in second to the legendary Jimmy Thompson. If he played today, I can think of no reason why he wouldn't perform at the same level.
When Hogan was competing most golfers were around the 5'8" size because that was considered the ideal height back then.Today the best golfers are at least 6 foot and 180lb.No big athletes played pro golf because lack of prize money.

I admire Hogan as much as anyone but a good big guy will always beat a good little guy in sport.You don't pit Mike Tyson against Sugar Ray Leonard.

your talking about golf right. i nominate this post for worst of 2005
 

ej20

New
I don't think Hogan was as long as some people here make him out to be.In his book,The Five Fundamentals,he hit 2 iron from 200y at the 1950 Open at Merion.Not much diff in distance with irons back then and now,maybe 15y with the balls.I also read somewhere that he hit Driver,3 iron,pw at the 490y 13th Augusta before they lengthened it.Tiger hit Driver,8 iron.
 
quote:Originally posted by ej20

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

a 5'8" 135 guy can pole vault as high or higher than the height of a typical freeway overpass. That's what I call strength. Or lift whatever the power lifters in that class are capable of.

I don't think Hogan would be below average distance by today's standards because he would've gained at least 25 yds.with better equipment. I estimate his clubhead speed was about that of Sergio's. Some have given figures that would equal TW's speed, but IMO, TW is quite a bit faster. Some of the old videos get speeded up about 10% when the film is transferred into another format, btw.

Before the accident, Hogan often won long driving contests or came in second to the legendary Jimmy Thompson. If he played today, I can think of no reason why he wouldn't perform at the same level.
When Hogan was competing most golfers were around the 5'8" size because that was considered the ideal height back then.Today the best golfers are at least 6 foot and 180lb.No big athletes played pro golf because lack of prize money.

I admire Hogan as much as anyone but a good big guy will always beat a good little guy in sport.You don't pit Mike Tyson against Sugar Ray Leonard.
yeah, tyson was 6'3 I believe
 
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