Not a "sway"

[Brian Manzella]

Today I posted the video below to show that—yes—Walter Hagen moved his head on the backswing. And yes Walter Hagen played golf before Jimmy Ballard taught golf. And yes, David Toms and Lindsay Gahm move their head, and so do lots of folks, and Bob May and Scott Simpson mode theirs up, and they played pretty darn good.

I drew all the lines because I thought someone was trying to say Hagen didn't move his head.

He did.

Hagen had a really good swing and was one of the best ever.

Trying to keep your head dead still is silly.

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[SteveT]

So what does the head mass represent in a golfswing....

Well.... the head of a mature human can weigh anywhere from 8-12lbs and about 8% of total body mass..... and in the golfswing it's cantilevered from the shoulder span via the neck or cervical spine. In effect it's in counterweight to the upper body and functions as a balancing mechanism to the entire body.

Of what significance is this head mass and what are the kinetic consequences of a moving head during the golfswing???

Anybody want to hazard a guess... maybe "art" who is studying the whole body golfswing dynamics can help us on this conundrum, perplexity, dilemma...???

 

[Kevin Shields]

I, for one, would certainly listen if he would hazard a guess.

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Brian....what about head movement to the left on the backswing? Obviously the head is moving left here at the "completion" phase of the backswing....but what about a head that ends up left of the original starting position? Issues?

 

[BrendanC]

My guess: it's like the top of the trebuchet (Nicklaus).

Head and left shoulder at the top needs to move away while the thing (clubhead) at the bottom moves towards.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Brian is right. Stationary head is one of the worst myths.

Brian....what about head movement to the left on the backswing? Obviously the head is moving left here at the "completion" phase of the backswing....but what about a head that ends up left of the original starting position? Issues?

I am sorry for the horrible threadjack now -- but please look and see if my eyes are that bad or this is really happening. The letter "s" in the text; I can see that there are two different letters "s", one a bit wider and the other a bit narrower.
Consider the word "issues" in Richard's post -- the first letter is wider, the other is narrower. Just opposite to what happens in my word ^^ above

Crazy thing -- sorry but I had to ask about it.

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

Weeks and Weeks go by and I don't even mention head movement in a lesson.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Weeks and Weeks go by and I don't even mention head movement in a lesson.

I do, because I find lots of poor ball-strikers who move the head away from the target and/or up on the backswing and never get back toward the target or down enough on the downswing to impact the sweet spot with a descending attack angle. For these folks, Stack and Tilt can be a very effective pattern, especially with irons. I've never seen the benefit for a Tour pro. They're pretty good at finding the sweet spot.

But a better power move involvesd some spine tilt/head move away from the target. I like Ballard's point that if you were going to throw a ball really far, you'd begin the motion with a little move away from the target before moving toward the target.

By the way, even Nicklaus, who was adamant about keeping the head axis "fixed", didn't do that............with the driver.

 

[softconsult]

Darius, it's called justification. Used to mean adjusting the space between words for better alignment. Now, as I understand from a Google Search, it also includes stretching or shrinking fonts.

"At one time, common word-processing software adjusted only the spacing between words, which was a source of this problem. Modern word processing packages, and professional publishing software, significantly reduce the rivers effect through adjusting the spacing between characters as well as using more advanced digital typography techniques such as automatically choosing among different glyphs for the same character and slightly stretching or shrinking the character in order to better fill the line. The technique of glyph scaling or microtypography has been implemented by Adobe InDesign and more recent versions of pdfTeX."

 

[Brian Manzella]

I do, because I find lots of poor ball-strikers who move the head away from the target and/or up on the backswing and never get back toward the target or down enough on the downswing to impact the sweet spot with a descending attack angle.

I have never had any problem in my whole life teaching where the club struck the ground.

One week with me Todd, and you'd never draw that circle again.

(btw, the argument that I was in was with teachers who would never have the head as far back as Nicklaus)

 

[Dariusz J.]

Darius, it's called justification. Used to mean adjusting the space between words for better alignment. Now, as I understand from a Google Search, it also includes stretching or shrinking fonts.

"At one time, common word-processing software adjusted only the spacing between words, which was a source of this problem. Modern word processing packages, and professional publishing software, significantly reduce the rivers effect through adjusting the spacing between characters as well as using more advanced digital typography techniques such as automatically choosing among different glyphs for the same character and slightly stretching or shrinking the character in order to better fill the line. The technique of glyph scaling or microtypography has been implemented by Adobe InDesign and more recent versions of pdfTeX."

You have no idea how thankful I am for your post. I thought something was wrong with me.

Cheers

P.S. Ceterum censeo, stationary head is a silly myth.

 

[Matt 4-L]

To me I look at the right leg and if it doesn't lose its angle it' not a sway, who cares what the head is doing. Hagen had a really wide stance so it made it look like it was a big move to the right.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You might play great with a steady head.

You might play great with a forward steady head, but that would be harder.

You might play great with a head that moves a bit to the right going back, but stays behind the ball through impact.

You might play great with a head that moves more than a bit to the right going back, but stays behind the ball through impact.

You might play great with a head that doesn't move side to side but moves a little up and down...not too common but possible.

You might play great with a head that moves side to side but moves a little up and down...not too common but possible.


It is right up there with....


You might play great with an upright swing.

You might play great with a flat swing....


Simple.

 

[ZAP]

Funny you should mention this topic. It was one of my biggest fears gong into my first lesson with Brian that he would try to have me keep my head more centered or steady. I had tried that in the past with horrific results. Needless to say I was relieved when the topic was never even mentioned. Made me instantly aware that Brian does not try to fit you into a pattern but works to make your individual pattern produce good numbers and ball flight. It also changed the way I look at other golf swings as well.

 

[SteveT]

After sleeping on the question, and upon awakening quite late, it struck me!! The head contains the body balancing mechanisms within the inner ear structure!!!

Could it be that some golfers must move their heads back to maintain a proper sense of balance, while others need not do that??!!!

Then we get into the different body types -- mesomorph, endomorph, ectomorph -- and the different distribution of body mass. Another factor is one's neck and shoulder span musculature. We have soft and rigid shoulder structures, so why not soft and rigid neck structures?

Another factor may be the distance from the total body Center of Mass located in the proximity of the navel and the distance to the distal head mass CoM. That can be quite a long leverage distance for taller golfers.

Then there is the 'mental' aspects of bringing the body and head masses towards the rear foot on the backswing, which may just be a natural reflex.... while holding it still centered is unnatural and must be an imposed position. Doesn't Stack n' Tilt keep the body CoM forward thus blocking the head mass from swaying back?

When you throw everything into the Anatomy-Kinetic Pot, you get a lot of variables and few constants... which complicates things to no end.

Brian has explained his experiential teaching philosophy about head positioning.... but where is art our resident anatomist-kineticist when you need him... ART... why does the head move/not move in the backswing...???!!!!

 

[OLIVER1]

but where is art our resident anatomist-kineticist when you need him... ART... .???!!!!

....where Art thou....?
Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed every one of Art's posts. I'm sure I speak for many when I extend a big thank you to Art. It also says a great deal about this site when you have guys of Art's background and calibre posting.
That's it. Just wanted to give credit where credit is due.

 

[bcoak]

The head controls the body's movement. When you turn around or turn to look, what leads? The head. Why should a swing be any different.

 

[Cloran]

How/why the eyes should move, how/why the head should turn, and how/why the head should tilt during a golf swing are HUGE topics rarely discussed/taught. I can only think of a handful of guys that understand it... and I ain't one of 'em.

I do know this though... tilting your head to one side and driving your car is not fun.

 

[mgranato]

More fun than the "tilt and cough" though.

 

[Rick Dandy]

How about a head that moves rearward and backward to the top, then lowers, moves towards and stays back the ball?