The pivot controlled hands swing?

[hue]

Brian: Do you teach pivot controlled hands for any aspect of the game?


Brian and others:

What is the idea behind it and why do some teachers teach it? I am pretty sure Nick Price and Faldo fall into this category. You get less length swinging this way than hands contolled pivot. So what is the pay off that makes the loss of length worthwhile to those that swing this way? Thanks.

 

[southpaw]

Really? Less length? How so?

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by southpaw

Really? Less length? How so?

Hi South, There was always this talk about pivot controlled swings being shorter. The counter was that they were more accurate. Faldo and Sutton were the two examples of pivot control golfers; citing that these two big guys should have been knocking the ball further. I think the style of their game wasn't taking into account.

They may not even be Pivot over hands. Could anyone tell the difference just watching? I think the difference lies in heads, the thought process appling the club onto ball. To me, they (Faldo/Sutton) look like any good golf swing.

 

[southpaw]

I don't think you can classify many of these players as just one or the other- more like a combination. Many players think hand-controlled pivot going back and the opposite going through. Faldo thinks about setting his hands really early and turning level, so which is he? Sutton may be purely body-controlled pivot, as he's into Ballard. Tiger Woods is a combination. CH III is a combo. For the most part, it depends on what problems the player is trying to solve in his or her swing.

Suffice it to say that most of today's modern tour-level players think about rotating their body on the downswing and keeping their hands quiet. There's a specific reason for that- they already know how to use their hands, and now they want to stabilize the clubface to keep from curving the ball too much. A body pivot-controlled downswing takes a lot of the curve off of the ball. If you go to a pro tournament, notice how high and straight they're hitting it nowadays. Equipment has a lot to do with it, but the swing does, too.

BTW, Maruyama is pretty much of a body swinger, and he's no short knocker.

 

[EdZ]

body control or hands control - doesn't matter.

Hands and chest MUST stay in synch - and when that happens, a swing is 'both' body control AND hand control - they tie.

IMO - the 'feel' is more body control, the arms are along for the ride, but provide enough 'support' to stay in synch with the chest.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by southpaw

Really? Less length? How so?

southpaw;

Speed does not come from the body . The body/pivot provides the lines for which your hands and arms are to work(inside to inside). If you stop the pivot your hands and arms will not be allowed to reach their maximum speed which gives the illusion that speed comes from the body.

Brian: Is Mark O'Meara's action pivot controlled hands IYO? Thanks.

 

[EdZ]

Hue, how can you have fast hands without fast arms? How can you have fast arms without fast shoulders? how can you have fast shoulders without fast hips?

It is a chain reaction, that moves from the feet'through' the body TO the hands.

The 'feel' is in the hands, and the feet. The power 'moves' from the feet to the hands to the club.

 

[hue]

The pivot needs to move fast to ALLOW the hands and arms to move fast that is not the same as saying the pivot generates the speed of the hands and arms.

 

[EdZ]

think of a major league pitcher.... you can bet big bucks they use their bodies to generate power. Same with any other althletic motion.

Using the body is more 'efficient' force

 

[hue]

The pitcher thinks of shifting his hand and arm fast and the body reacts to this thought. The body reacts to allow this to happen. So the pitcher is the classic hand controlled pivot motion. If the hands and arms did not match the turning rate of the body they would be left behind and that would be ridiculous. The pitcher has a lot of extensor action in the throw using the trail shoulder as a launch pad to generate speed .

 

[EdZ]

feel and real hue....

the pitcher 'thinks' target, and might 'feel' hands - but you can bet the body leads

same in golf

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

feel and real hue....

the pitcher 'thinks' target, and might 'feel' hands - but you can bet the body leads

same in golf

Homer says in 5-0, “ The Hands are the ‘Command Post...’ ” We monitor the hands not the clubface, we feel through the hands. The hands are the BRAINS. The hands allow all the other parts of the body to move when the hands want them to move. A hand control pivot does not mean the hands lead the action. The hands determine the hinge action, the type of lag or drive load, monitor delivery lines and paths. It is a hand(s) controls a pivot movement. The idea of the body truck pushing and pulling the hands is absurd. And I’m not say, EDZ that you are implying that either. In fact, you could not release accumulator #4, if the hands lead the action as some believe. Read Homer 2-M-3, especially paragraph 2. I'm not typing it, . Hands=Brains. Its the hands that move the whole friggin' swing,

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

feel and real hue....

the pitcher 'thinks' target, and might 'feel' hands - but you can bet the body leads

same in golf

The first move is from the ground up but as 6bee1dee points out Hands=Brains and brains control hence hands controlled pivot . Because the body moves first this does mean that it should control the swing.Intention to use the hands makes this happen.

 

[mgjordan]

EdZ,

What about a player hitting a ball 230-250 yards sitting in a chair? There is a little movement in the lower body, but it is significantly restricted because the player is sitting and it is a direct RESPONSE to that player using his hands and arms to swing the club. When that player stands up and hits, he will only get 20-30% more distance and I can guarentee that he has more than 30% more movement in his hips from a standing position. There is no way a shot hit from a chair can be generated from the ground up...no way. Yet the shot can still be a good one and quite far.

 

[EdZ]

Yep, and if you put tiger in a chair, I'd bet you'll see a much larger 'percentage' drop in distance, than you would with the average person who doesn't have as good of timing, and by isolating the arms, picks up distance due to a 'stable' hub.

A chair still gives you the main 'engine' - the torso. Make someone keep their back against the chair, and use arms only, and you won't see 230 yrd drives.

I'm not disagreeing that the 'mind is in the hands' - from a 'directing the force' standpoint - only that BOTH the hands and the body can be used. It is a choice, just like hitting and swinging, and assuming your hands and chest synch up, they are basically equal.

We aren't disagreeing, just flipping that same coin.....another perspective.

 

[southpaw]

Hue, I made no argument either way about which part of the anatomy supplies the most power. My post pertained to the use of the body pivot to control shot DIRECTIONALITY. Reiterating... better players think of the body transporting the arms and hands to stabilize the face and eliminate the curve of the ball. Efficient body motion eliminates the need to "overuse" the hands to square the face. A better player already has educated his hands, and fights an inside-out hook.

 

[EdZ]

well said southpaw, I agree

the bottom line on both (power and direction) is being in synch with the chest

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by southpaw

Hue, I made no argument either way about which part of the anatomy supplies the most power. My post pertained to the use of the body pivot to control shot DIRECTIONALITY. Reiterating... better players think of the body transporting the arms and hands to stabilize the face and eliminate the curve of the ball. Efficient body motion eliminates the need to "overuse" the hands to square the face. A better player already has educated his hands, and fights an inside-out hook.

Agree South.

There is no dispute in the role of the body. But the hands controlled pivot isn't a handsy thing at all. In fact very passive hands can be used if that's what the hands want to do. This isn't a swing the arms motion only, far from it. I think Homer said, and I don't have the book in front of me [:0], body ahead of hands -hands ahead of clubhead. TGM loves the body, its the FIRST zone, its just not allowed to think on its own.

 

[Brian Manzella]

First of all this IN SYNC stuff is SO MUCH BULL...with it you have no #4 accumulator angle or release...which almost all great players have in spades.

Second...PIVOT CONTROLED HANDS swing/stroke: Body 'moves' free arms around (hands go for the ride).
HANDS CONTROLED PIVOT swing/stroke: Hands DICTATE how far the pivot goes back and WHERE the pivot goes on the downswing (hands are monitored DIRECTLY).

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by hue

Brian: Do you teach pivot controlled hands for any aspect of the game?


Brian and others:

What is the idea behind it and why do some teachers teach it? I am pretty sure Nick Price and Faldo fall into this category. You get less length swinging this way than hands contolled pivot. So what is the pay off that makes the loss of length worthwhile to those that swing this way? Thanks.

Brian: What are your thoughts raised by the original question? Thanks.