Any truth from lies?

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Had a good friend and player (+ index) stop by last week to have his lie angles checked and bent. He said his divots had been toe heavy and thought his lies might be causing it.

Sure enough, he was toe heavy through the bag and most noticeably with the shorter clubs and wedges, but his lie angles checked out to be “standard” for his model, which he always plays to. He’s a non-technical player (no videos, lessons, forums, etc.), and to my eye his swing didn’t look any different than it has since I’ve known him. This issue isn't from any conscious swing changes.

He’s also noticing a few more “odd” ball flights with some contact occasionally towards the heel and toe.

What I found odd from my perspective was that no matter how I bent his angles (4 up to 2 flat), nothing seemed to change. The divots all looked consistently toe heavy with the odd heel and toe impact. He seemed to be able to make the same impact regardless of the lie angle.

Obviously he’s got some kind of handle raising going on, but the amount seems to be dependent on the lie angle (just enough to counter whatever that angle is). I asked if he could make a heel heavy divot, he couldn’t while producing a useful shot. That’s about the extent of my comfort with making blind suggestions for his swing.

His VSP was in the 57-59 range (7 iron). His path was 2-2.5 with face between 1-2. His AoA was 3-4 with the odd one at 5-6.

Are there any typical causes for having a consistent toe heavy divot regardless of the lie angle?
 
Reminds me of Paul Woods' comment at ASII that the golfers Ping have tested can adjust to any lie angle [within reason].
 
Turf contact is not as important as where the true face is pointing. That club will get through the ground and nothing will really hold it up if it is swung with any amount of speed.
 
I had this same problem and just kept bending them upright until the toe didn't come in low anymore. it was way more than i thought it would be. if possible, try to bend one club enough to get that toe to stop coming in low, and see how he hits them.

Reminds me of Paul Woods' comment at ASII that the golfers Ping have tested can adjust to any lie angle [within reason].

i play pings now because they were the only cavity backs i could bend to fit my swing. I love them and just bought 4 ping wedges, all the same length and lie, just different lofts.
 
Mike: based on your "some kind of handle raising going on" observation -- do you think a shorter shaft length would help alleviate the toe-heavy condition?
 
Out hands is a possible cause. Toes from standing up, heels when he doesnt. Extreme out hands make a better player stand it up to get off the hosel. Shut to open another culprit. You Might get a squarer face from bending up but still toe hits. Get am impact pic vs an address pic. I'm guessing out hands. VSP IS good.
 
I had this same problem and just kept bending them upright until the toe didn't come in low anymore. it was way more than i thought it would be. if possible, try to bend one club enough to get that toe to stop coming in low, and see how he hits them.



i play pings now because they were the only cavity backs i could bend to fit my swing. I love them and just bought 4 ping wedges, all the same length and lie, just different lofts.

Sorry for the little derailment, but do you send your clubs to Ping to bend or can a club fitter do it? I have heard Pings are tough to bend correctly.
 
spktho,

As Ping's are cast heads, I believe they are going to be tougher to bend with a higher risk of breakage. Heat is probably involved and I believe they've been putting that "under-cut" near the hosel to facilitate any slight bending they may need to do. I thought they guaranteed a 1.5 degrees max lie angle change to any existing set. More than that and I believe they no longer assume any of the risk.

IIRC all bets are off if you have a Ping club altered by anyone other than Ping and experience any "issues". Thus the recommendation to send lie-angle alterations back to Ping.
 
Thanks for all the great suggestions so far. I think "out hands" are probably the most likely scenario.

As for Ping clubs... all you need is a hammer to adjust their angles.


:)
 
"Out hands"? Everybody's hands go out and down to their low point. Besides, hands more out at impact would cause a flatter VSP, not more upright. Anyway, when the loft plane of the clubface is parallel to the ground at impact, then the divots won't be toe deep. Period. Test the modern, more accurate way........impact decal....use a sharpie to draw a straight line on the ball.....set the line vertical.....check decal....imprint should be vertical.
 
Hands can go too out, correct?

VSP is not the same as lie angle, so I'm a bit lost on the correlation you're making.

I've used the "more accurate way", but it has it's limitations too. Doesn't matter if it's a lie board or that method, it's telling me what we already know... he's toe down. Bend him 4 degrees upright... he's toe down. Bend him 2 degrees flat... he's toe down.

He's doing something that's causing the toe deep divot. Just looking for possible causes of why a good player might be doing this.
 
Can someone smarten me up?

Could more outward hands initially cause a visually flatter VSP? If I'm not mistaken, by the time TrackMan or Flightscope get their readings, wouldn't you be standing the shaft up to hit the ball due to the out ward hand path resulting in a higher VSP?

Just thinking out loud, but looking at a swing from a DTL perspective, higher more ouward hands = steeper VSP, lower more verticle hands = flatter VSP.

Am I off base here?
 
Reminds me of Paul Woods' comment at ASII that the golfers Ping have tested can adjust to any lie angle [within reason].

He said that?

I can believe it - but very interesting that it's been tested. Supports Harvey Penick's contention that lie angle fitting isn't that critical.
 
Hands can go too out, correct?

VSP is not the same as lie angle, so I'm a bit lost on the correlation you're making.

I've used the "more accurate way", but it has it's limitations too. Doesn't matter if it's a lie board or that method, it's telling me what we already know... he's toe down. Bend him 4 degrees upright... he's toe down. Bend him 2 degrees flat... he's toe down.

He's doing something that's causing the toe deep divot. Just looking for possible causes of why a good player might be doing this.
I think I read Wishon or Maltby saying some people can strike the ball great and just naturally take divots that aren't necessarily flush. As long as the sweet spot reaches the ball and the flight/traj is controlled. The face being grabbed by the dirt interaction is a bunch of baloney. If the divots are toe deep that to me just means the face is going to be pointed a little right.
 
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Hands can go too out, correct?

VSP is not the same as lie angle, so I'm a bit lost on the correlation you're making.

I've used the "more accurate way", but it has it's limitations too. Doesn't matter if it's a lie board or that method, it's telling me what we already know... he's toe down. Bend him 4 degrees upright... he's toe down. Bend him 2 degrees flat... he's toe down.

He's doing something that's causing the toe deep divot. Just looking for possible causes of why a good player might be doing this.

Simply standing so close to the ball that he cannot get the heel down (or toe up) at impact.
 
Thanks for all the great suggestions so far. I think "out hands" are probably the most likely scenario.

As for Ping clubs... all you need is a hammer to adjust their angles.


:)

Interersting video. Love the precision hammer, although I'd love to see him alter Calc's BeCu Eye 2's he won the British Open with using that technique. My guess is Ping figured out they couldn't adjust squat until they started putting a notch in the hosel.
 
I think I read Wishon or Maltby saying some people can strike the ball great and just naturally take divots that aren't necessarily flush. As long as the sweet spot reaches the ball and the flight/traj is controlled. The face being grabbed by the dirt interaction is a bunch of baloney. If the divots are toe deep that to me just means the face is going to be pointed a little right.

GREAT point. If anything, new research is showing that the face CLOSES somewhat, upon interacting with the ground. "Conventional" wisdom says that if the toe is deep, then the face will "open". Hmmmmmmmmmm
 
Could more outward hands initially cause a visually flatter VSP? If I'm not mistaken, by the time TrackMan or Flightscope get their readings, wouldn't you be standing the shaft up to hit the ball due to the out ward hand path resulting in a higher VSP?

Just thinking out loud, but looking at a swing from a DTL perspective, higher more ouward hands = steeper VSP, lower more verticle hands = flatter VSP.

Am I off base here?

The VSP is the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground during collision. The lie angle of the club is the angle of the loft plane to the clubshaft, statically. Lie angle - "toe droop" = VSP. Think about it this way.......the impact plane runs from the ball through the upper core/sternum area. It doesn't vary that much.
 
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