BBKIB experiment results

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

The link below should permit you (and anybody else) to access the data from my BBKIB experiment. If someone can figure out how to display the data (without everybody needing to download it via dropbox), feel free to do so.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vpteaq60qqw8gic/ePP3gJg82V

The summary dispersion figure is here:

Notes:
1. 40 shots. 10 with 5 iron using BBKIB. 10 without. 10 with 7 iron using BBKIB. 10 without.
2. 5 balls hit with each option. Went through the four options once and reversed the order second time through. I looked only at spin rate (to detect misreads) and the image of the ball trajectory. I did not look at any of the specific club or ball parameters.
3. Only shots deleted were spin misreads...but i think a few snuck through.
4. Don’t be alarmed by the high AoA numbers..I am aware of that already ☺
5. Every effort made to be objective..but I have been using BBKIB as a swingthought for a few months, so there is some bias built into this study.
6. My BBKIB swingthoughts are as follows: a) preset right hip back to create feel of closed hips at address; b) keep right hip there until left hip comes back level with right during backswing…at that point right hip can be released.
7. My NORMAL swingthought was to get hips at least level, if not the right hip slightly in front of the left…and to think only about shoulders on downswing. In other words, no hip swingthought.
8. My version of the FS App does not have lateral distance.
9. I try to hit the ball dead straight.
10. If asked prior to experiment I would have nominated the following as my carry distances for each club: My 7 iron distance is 163 yards. My 5 iron distance is 182yds. The good ones go a little further than that and the bad ones less than that.
11. Launch monitor was FSX2, Ipad app, Real Feal Golf Mat, indoor setting, ProVX1 balls.
12. I remember clearly the outlier (i.e. the big pull) in the BBKIB7 data..it was an over-correction of the four previous shots which were all pushes.

I will let the numbers do the talking for a while and then add my own qualitative comments and assessment.

Enjoy..and happy birthday for last week.

 

[art]

Art,

The link below should permit you (and anybody else) to access the data from my BBKIB experiment. If someone can figure out how to display the data (without everybody needing to download it via dropbox), feel free to do so.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vpteaq60qqw8gic/ePP3gJg82V

The summary dispersion figure is here:

Notes:
1. 40 shots. 10 with 5 iron using BBKIB. 10 without. 10 with 7 iron using BBKIB. 10 without.
2. 5 balls hit with each option. Went through the four options once and reversed the order second time through. I looked only at spin rate (to detect misreads) and the image of the ball trajectory. I did not look at any of the specific club or ball parameters.
3. Only shots deleted were spin misreads...but i think a few snuck through.
4. Don’t be alarmed by the high AoA numbers..I am aware of that already ☺
5. Every effort made to be objective..but I have been using BBKIB as a swingthought for a few months, so there is some bias built into this study.
6. My BBKIB swingthoughts are as follows: a) preset right hip back to create feel of closed hips at address; b) keep right hip there until left hip comes back level with right during backswing…at that point right hip can be released.
7. My NORMAL swingthought was to get hips at least level, if not the right hip slightly in front of the left…and to think only about shoulders on downswing. In other words, no hip swingthought.
8. My version of the FS App does not have lateral distance.
9. I try to hit the ball dead straight.
10. If asked prior to experiment I would have nominated the following as my carry distances for each club: My 7 iron distance is 163 yards. My 5 iron distance is 182yds. The good ones go a little further than that and the bad ones less than that.
11. Launch monitor was FSX2, Ipad app, Real Feal Golf Mat, indoor setting, ProVX1 balls.
12. I remember clearly the outlier (i.e. the big pull) in the BBKIB7 data..it was an over-correction of the four previous shots which were all pushes.

I will let the numbers do the talking for a while and then add my own qualitative comments and assessment.

Enjoy..and happy birthday for last week.[/QUOTE

]

Dear Geoff,

A loud and appreciative public THANK YOU for the quality and depth of your work.

I don't know how can I adequately thank you for the effort you put into this test, but I will try with an in depth review in the next few days regarding my thoughts and observations.

An overview of some of the critical dynamic balance parameters indicates, as you said, the possibility of BBKIB 'legacy' inherent in the "Normal" data. To that end, do you have 'old', pre BBKIB data or even a recollection of your 5 and 7 iron 'distance and dispersion' performance say last year or so ??

Sincerely and appreciatively,
art

 

[ParHunter]

Geoff, is that the raw data or did you do some filtering already?
It looks like some off hits are screwing the results a bit. I would have taken the best and worst shot out for each test group (but then the group is getting quite small at 3 shots only).

I don't think the way FS draws these dispersion circles is really useful as just one off shot (good or bad) can massively increase the circle. E.g. you hit 9 straight shots 150 yards within feet of each other and then you shank one 100 yards in a 45 degree angle. You would end up with a very big circle.

 

[mgranato]

Geoff, is it possible for you to grab the screenshot of the data tables from the app for each of those 4 categories, and then post them as Jpegs so we could see the data a bit easier? I think seeing each shot for what it was would be useful for comparison.

 

[GeoffDickson]

Geoff, is that the raw data or did you do some filtering already?
It looks like some off hits are screwing the results a bit. I would have taken the best and worst shot out for each test group (but then the group is getting quite small at 3 shots only).

I don't think the way FS draws these dispersion circles is really useful as just one off shot (good or bad) can massively increase the circle. E.g. you hit 9 straight shots 150 yards within feet of each other and then you shank one 100 yards in a 45 degree angle. You would end up with a very big circle.

I only eliminated spin misreads. Art wanted all the shots, mishits included. I agree with your observation. That's why I made Note 12. Maybe in the future I should be permitted to 'eliminate' the worst shot of the sample. if that's the case maybe I should also eliminate the best shot...in other words, treat the best and worst shots as outliers.

The 189y 5 iron is also a very low spin..probably a misread...so that circile gets alot smaller if that one is removed.

 

[GeoffDickson]

I had to split the image of the output data across two files, a and b.

Normal 7a

Normal7b

BBKIB7a

BBKIB7b

 

[GeoffDickson]

Normal5a

Normal5b

BBKIB5a

BBKIB5b

 

[mgranato]

Perfect - thanks

 

[art]

I only eliminated spin misreads. Art wanted all the shots, mishits included. I agree with your observation. That's why I made Note 12. Maybe in the future I should be permitted to 'eliminate' the worst shot of the sample. if that's the case maybe I should also eliminate the best shot...in other words, treat the best and worst shots as outliers.

The 189y 5 iron is also a very low spin..probably a misread...so that circile gets alot smaller if that one is removed.

Dear Geoff,

I have had the time to review the data you so generously provided with special attention to whether or not there were 'statistically significant' advantages to the BBKIB swings.

Bottom line is YES, there were for the 7 iron, but not for the 5 iron. HOWEVER, there are a few confirming and 'hopeful' indications for BBKIB advantages even with the 5 iron.

First a few important overall observations.

(1) I too disregard the circular presentations of the scatter diagrams/plots, they are both misleading, and in the case of the 5 iron, inaccurate, as the 'center/average of the BBKIB is not at the calculated value of181 yards, while the normal seems to be centered at about 180 yards and looks ok. A much more realistic presentation would be to create a circle whose radius is 1.4 times the indicated 'deviation' for carry distance, and if the miss distance is also available, a slightly more complex calculation equating to the 'root mean square' of the sum of both the deviations.

The benefit of this approach versus the simple circle as drawn is that it 'believably' represents about 68% of the expected performance AND a circle twice this diameter represents 95% of the expected performance. also, this simple calculation allows a quantitative statistical evaluation whether or not the performance of either alternative is better, and statistically, by how much ?

(2) The absence of miss distance, except visually on the graph, limits the understanding significantly as these distance parameters, are very accurately measured and calculated by both FlightScope and Trackman, and provide additional insight as to the effects of the less accurate impact dynamic characteristics.

(3) The ratio, or percentage of any parameters deviation to average value provides additional insight as to the differences of normal versus BBKIB performance, so thanks again for the completeness of the data package.

(4) A great value of the impact scatter diagram is to draw a line from the launch point to the center/average of the data, look at the real impact points and 'see' if there has been a 'biased' aiming error, in contrast to the expected random variation of the impact points. This could also be the result of relocation of the launch monitor too, so particular attention to aiming the devica AND the golfer are important. From your performance, YOU SHOULD BE VERY PLEASED WITH THE ACCURACY AND DISPERSION CONTROL FOR ALL THE TRIALS.

Back to a few more specific observations regarding the subject of whether or not there are differences (advantages) to BBKIB.

(1) With the 7 Iron, BBKIB swings had statistically higher/better performance in distance, ball velocity, smash factor, and vertical height, indicating IMO, significantly better dynamic balance and stability margin allowin/generating a more energitic and controlled swing.

(2) With the 5 Iron, I could not find a single parameter that showed a statistically valid difference between the 'normal' and BBKIB swings. I 'guess' the reason is not sufficient BB, or maybe even KIB longer, or bending your knees a bit more may be required to allow your body to 'welcome' the additional stability margin and let you swing harder AND with more control.

Maybe just a 5 Iron repeat with EXAGGERATED BBKIB elements would prove or disprove my 'guess'. The reason I origonally asked you to use the driver was exactly the suspicion that more balance /set-up change may be required for the longer shafted/distance clubs.

Thanks again for your support Goeff, many I hope will benefit as we continue dowm this road, hopefully under the guidance of Project 1.68.

Very Sincerely,
art

 

[mgranato]

The new app groups the shots in a better way (+ lateral landing ).

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

I will purchase the new FS app this week. Then the fun will really begin. I have committed to improving my BBKIB ability...so am in this for the long haul. If the new app does what i think it does, then video images and FS data can be linked.

There are certainly times when I feel I get the BBKIB correct/in sequence. It is certainly not yet engrained. I played inter-club matchplay today. Implemented BBKIB as best I could. Struggled through the first nine but came good on the back nine for a 3/2 win. Thanks 'partner'.

I have some old data, but nothing that can be easily classsified/isolated as 'pre-BBKIB' as I have been working on a few things these last few months.

As an academic I have used the phrase - more research is required - more than once in my career. It's time to use it again. I will have more data in a few days.

 

[art]

Art,

I will purchase the new FS app this week. Then the fun will really begin. I have committed to improving my BBKIB ability...so am in this for the long haul. If the new app does what i think it does, then video images and FS data can be linked.

There are certainly times when I feel I get the BBKIB correct/in sequence. It is certainly not yet engrained. I played inter-club matchplay today. Implemented BBKIB as best I could. Struggled through the first nine but came good on the back nine for a 3/2 win. Thanks 'partner'.

I have some old data, but nothing that can be easily classsified/isolated as 'pre-BBKIB' as I have been working on a few things these last few months.

As an academic I have used the phrase - more research is required - more than once in my career. It's time to use it again. I will have more data in a few days.

Dear Goeff,

Thanks again for your dedication and efforts regarding BBKIB testing, and forwarding the documentation.

I just reviewed some of your previous posts looking for video's to help me better understand your swing.

Are there representative ?
This was the old address position: Me - 7 Iron - YouTube
This is the new address position: Me - 7 Iron - YouTube

If so, looking at your lead foot activity even from that camera angle would, if we were testing together, lead me to want to help you 'quiet' that activity, especially the 'rolling over' of the left foot.

I 'think' it is the result of a more than necessary 'lateral slide' during the downswing, with MY desire to want to see more of a rotary emphasis.

Data I have seen on TPI 3D, 6DOF that 'tracks' "Trunk Dynamic Stability" for both the Pelvis and Thorax is depicted as 'Sway', 'Thrust', and 'Lift', and it is your 'Sway', or moving towards the target, that may be a bit excessive for best lower body dynamic balance, especially with the longer shafted clubs.

The TPI Manual that I have from the Level 2 Biomechanics Course indicates PGA position limits from the top of the back swing to impact FOR THE PELVIS of - 1inch (away) to +1.4 inches (towards the target), to +2.6 to+5.6inches at impact, and FOR THE THORAX, -1.6 inches (away) to + 0.8 inches, to -1.9 inches to +1.1 inches at impact.

THESE ARE NOT BBKIB numbers, but representative of elite players that I am sure are dynamically well balanced, SO I just wanted you to have a 'feel' for the importance of limiting the 'towards the target' sway, and associated left foot 'rolling' result from, IMO, too much lateral movement.

Certainly not a crucial problem, but for sure one that lessens the desire and ability to generate more lower body dynamic stability margin.

Looking forward to resumed testing and the associated dialog.

Very sincerely'
art

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

As we would say in Australia (even though I now live in NZ): There's no flies on you mate.

The left foot 'roll' is still a feature of my swing. Good observation. Here is a cut and paste from a post I made about two weeks ago on another (less scientific) forum about my left foot

**
The outside of my left foot is getting very sore after golf.

At the finish, my left ankle is rolled to the left. The spikes on the inside of my left show are 'in the air'.

I had a swing using the MTRx app the other day. 53* hip turn during backswing. Only 10-15* open at impact. Does this indicate too much lateral shift and not enough rotation? Do I need to 'squish the bug' with my left heel more?

Where do i start looking for solutions (apart from thinking about new shoes)?

***

I think we are both on the same page.

 

[Keefer]

Art,

As we would say in Australia (even though I now live in NZ): There's no flies on you mate.

The left foot 'roll' is still a feature of my swing. Good observation. Here is a cut and paste from a post I made about two weeks ago on another (less scientific) forum about my left foot

**
The outside of my left foot is getting very sore after golf.

At the finish, my left ankle is rolled to the left. The spikes on the inside of my left show are 'in the air'.

I had a swing using the MTRx app the other day. 53* hip turn during backswing. Only 10-15* open at impact. Does this indicate too much lateral shift and not enough rotation? Do I need to 'squish the bug' with my left heel more?

Where do i start looking for solutions (apart from thinking about new shoes)?

***

I think we are both on the same page.

More left foot flare maybe?

 

[art]

Art,

As we would say in Australia (even though I now live in NZ): There's no flies on you mate.

The left foot 'roll' is still a feature of my swing. Good observation. Here is a cut and paste from a post I made about two weeks ago on another (less scientific) forum about my left foot

**
The outside of my left foot is getting very sore after golf.

At the finish, my left ankle is rolled to the left. The spikes on the inside of my left show are 'in the air'.

I had a swing using the MTRx app the other day. 53* hip turn during backswing. Only 10-15* open at impact. Does this indicate too much lateral shift and not enough rotation? Do I need to 'squish the bug' with my left heel more?

Where do i start looking for solutions (apart from thinking about new shoes)?

***

I think we are both on the same page.

Dear Goeff,

Just yesterday I had the pleasure of helping a 27 year old hopeful with almost identical dynamic balance characteristics as I now see in your 2 videos above.

For the scientifically inclined, for both dynamic balance and energy transfer considerations, it is desirable to align as best as possible, the 'angular momentum' vectors of the shoulder/arm rotation, and the down swing arc of the club. This simply means the shoulders should rotate on an inclined plane at least UNTIL IMPACT.

As Keefer suggested, flaring the lead foot would help, but IMO NOT ENOUGH. In both videos, you are releasing the rear hip and is rotating much too quickly, in our terms, not enough KIB. BUT, this is the result/effect CAUSED by the lead shoulder which is rotating too horizontally, and not 'going up the shoulder plane'. This lead shoulder moving on that path PULLS the rear hip resulting in it being difficult, if not impossible to 'Keep it Back', KIB

I bring these comments up to try to encourage the readers to search for the CAUSES, before trying to modify the EFFECTS.

A simple Dr. Tim Gallwey 'Awareness Instruction", versus the typical "To-Do Instruction" for you would be to picture 3 paths for your lead shoulder to follow; (1) horizontal, (2) vertical, and of course, the winner, (3) up the inclined shoulder swing plane.

Please DO NOT TRY TO STEER this motion, simply 'want to do it', and AFTER the swing, determine if you were aware whether you 'performed' a 1,2 or 3; and IMO, I believe you need to get to consistent 3's for best dynamic stability.

This may sound hard, or even harsh, but it is worth the effort, as IMO, you will experience a very 'controlled' and stable swing AND follow-thru WITHOUT having to move your feet after the shot, as is the case in both videos.

Sincerely,
art

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

I am with you.

For years I have battled an inside takeaway. For years I thought my poor takeaway was caused by poor arms, wrist and arm movement. i finally learned that my inside takeaway was caused by a very poor/flat shoulder turn AND a desire to keep the club low on the takeaway.

For the last few months one of my key swing thoughts is to turn the shoulders at 90* to the spine during both backswing and downswing. Your comments merely suggest that I have some more work to down on the downswing in particular. It comes as no surprise and makes perfect sense...there sure is something very ugly about 1) my left shoulder during follow thru and 2) the club path/swing plane during follow through. In short, my follow through looks way too steep.

My '90* shoulder turn to the spine' swing thought...does that complement your suggestion of ensuring that my lead shoulder moves 'up the inclined shoulder swing plane"?

If I 1) bend forward from the hips and fold my arms; 2) rotate/twist my torso/shoulders (as if I was rocking a baby to sleep), is my lead shoulder moving 'up the inclined shoulder swing plane"?

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

Today I recorded 20 swings concentrating BBKIB and a higher left shoulder plane.

The new data is available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6c8m8qkvhr41h1k/RTXYRXPVNN

Send me a personal message if you are unable to access it.

Shoulder plane swingthoughts (in addition to the above 90* shoulder turn aim):
1) Get left shoulder as far away as possible from ball at impact;
2) Feel like left shoulder (and shoulder blade) are doing a bent over rowing exercise with dumbbell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwEIlo6y5OM). I don't expect the second one to make sense to anybody but it was what the 'new sensation' felt like; and,
3) Whilst keeping the right hip back, the left hip comes back (as per BBKIB) and then pushes the left shoulder up. This swingthought was aimed at getting the sequencing correct.

Short story is this:
Baseline/Today
1. 181/187 yard carry (i.e. 3% improvement)
2. 1.40/1.41 smash
3. 88.8 /90.4 club head speed
4. ...and anecdotally I was hitting them at least as straight, if not straighter

Other comments:
1. I felt I was releasing the club differently...my right hand was actually getting on top of the left during follow through...club face facing down...this does NOT happen to me very often.
2. My self-perceived BBKIB effectiveness was probably compromised by the effort to do something different with my shoulder plane.

All things considered, I am calling it a big win.

 

[art]

Art,

Today I recorded 20 swings concentrating BBKIB and a higher left shoulder plane.

The new data is available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6c8m8qkvhr41h1k/RTXYRXPVNN

Send me a personal message if you are unable to access it.

Shoulder plane swingthoughts (in addition to the above 90* shoulder turn aim):
1) Get left shoulder as far away as possible from ball at impact;
2) Feel like left shoulder (and shoulder blade) are doing a bent over rowing exercise with dumbbell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwEIlo6y5OM). I don't expect the second one to make sense to anybody but it was what the 'new sensation' felt like; and,
3) Whilst keeping the right hip back, the left hip comes back (as per BBKIB) and then pushes the left shoulder up. This swingthought was aimed at getting the sequencing correct.

Short story is this:
Baseline/Today
1. 181/187 yard carry (i.e. 3% improvement)
2. 1.40/1.41 smash
3. 88.8 /90.4 club head speed
4. ...and anecdotally I was hitting them at least as straight, if not straighter

Other comments:
1. I felt I was releasing the club differently...my right hand was actually getting on top of the left during follow through...club face facing down...this does NOT happen to me very often.
2. My self-perceived BBKIB effectiveness was probably compromised by the effort to do something different with my shoulder plane.

All things considered, I am calling it a big win.

Dear Goeff,

I do not know how to thank you for your efforts in bringing the importance of 'dynamic balance' to life thru in this case independent BBKIB experimentation.

It's 1 AM here and I will sleep very soundly 'feeling' the satisfaction you indicated.

I will follow this up after digesting the most recent data ADDING dynamic balance to the shoulder complex, and torso.

Very appreciatively,
art

 

[art]

Art,

I am with you.

For years I have battled an inside takeaway. For years I thought my poor takeaway was caused by poor arms, wrist and arm movement. i finally learned that my inside takeaway was caused by a very poor/flat shoulder turn AND a desire to keep the club low on the takeaway.

For the last few months one of my key swing thoughts is to turn the shoulders at 90* to the spine during both backswing and downswing. Your comments merely suggest that I have some more work to down on the downswing in particular. It comes as no surprise and makes perfect sense...there sure is something very ugly about 1) my left shoulder during follow thru and 2) the club path/swing plane during follow through. In short, my follow through looks way too steep.



Dear Goeff,

Before going to bed, I want to address(cut and paste, and answer) your two questions above, knowing well you probably will want to do a little more 'testing', so here goes.

QUESTION (1) "My '90* shoulder turn to the spine' swing thought...does that complement your suggestion of ensuring that my lead shoulder moves 'up the inclined shoulder swing plane"?

My answer has a few unexpected parts to it. First, from your videos, your 90 degree lead shoulder turn on the back swing with the desire to be perpendicular to the spine is IMO OK, BUT there is something even a little bit better that I am writing for the first time.

Always considering my belief that 'dynamic balance' is the cornerstone of a repeatable swing, (and the enabler of the ability to continuously improve), I have concluded that a better back swing 'thought' is to turn and raise your REAR shoulder, rather than lower your lead shoulder (up to 90 degrees). The science, NOT YET SUFFICIENTLY TESTED AND PROVEN, has to do with the typical rear (right side) dominance, and need to get it back, and yes KIB thru transition. Also things like range of motion, improved kinematic sequencing, and of course better dynamic balance ALL benefit from the back swing REALLY being the rear shoulder complex receiving the attention you have been giving the lead shoulder. MORE DETAILS IF YOU WISH, but I hope there is enough curiosity for you to give this a try.

QUESTION (2) "If I 1) bend forward from the hips and fold my arms; 2) rotate/twist my torso/shoulders (as if I was rocking a baby to sleep), is my lead shoulder moving 'up the inclined shoulder swing plane"?

Yes, I think for a right-hander with a desire to 'rock' the baby, IMO, the lead shoulder motion and the plane described in the 'towards' the target direction is a good 'plane angle' path for you to start to personally 'optimize' by trying planes a little steeper and more shallow. BUT JUST UNTIL THE EQUIVALENT OF THE IMPACT LOCATION, after which your follow-thru dynamics will very probably 'flatten out' your lead shoulder plane, but not necessarily the rear shoulder complex as both shoulders have INDEPENDENT 'conical' ranges of motion, which brings me back to my answer to your first question, and the need to let the rear, 'un-cupped' shoulder be the boss of the back swing, and the lead shoulder follow with you well demonstrated 90 degree turn

Sincerely,
art.

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

I will have no problem converting my backswing-shoulder swing thought to focus on the right shoulders. The right shoulder is now the boss.

You write that "both shoulders have INDEPENDENT 'conical' ranges of motion"...that makes perfect sense to me in the context of my "bent over rowing exercise with dumbbell" feel...it feels like my left shoulder is 'opening up' at a faster rate than (and presumably independently of) the right shoulder.