Where exactly IS "Low Point"?

[Brian Manzella]

This thread will be about how to determine different places in the swing, that low point can occur.

I have spent the last hour on a very good model that will let me precisely change left shoulder position, left arm position to the left shoulder, and wrist cock.

I will post pictures as I generate them.

For years I thought that Low Point was ALWAYS UNDER the Left Shoulder unless there was throwaway. I was wrong and Mandrin is the one that pointed it out and Tom Bartlett helped me understand it. When I am wrong I am the quickest teacher in golf to admit it and change my approach.

Let's wait for the pics and then we can comment.

Thanks, BM

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan

Here is Ben Hogan from LIFE MAGAZINE at low point.

He has some #4 accumulator angle and very little (What we will call just...) #2 accumulator angle.

(I know it could also be #3, but lets keep this model simple)

More to come....

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks Brian, this is exactly why i asked my thread and i think you are about to provide some real convincing arguments about what governs low point, Mandrin approved.... but MANZELLA explained ( to avoid Birdieman cranium explosion... )

 

[Vaako]

What defines this as low point - when you add (shaft droop and) forward bend of the club it will look slightly diffrent?

V.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What defines this as low point - when you add (shaft droop and) forward bend of the club it will look slightly diffrent?

V.

We are leaving shaft droop and forward bend out of this model.

TRUST ME, there is plenty to talk about otherwise.

 

[Brian Manzella]

NEXT EXAMPLE:

Here we have Ben Hogan with no #2—or more exactly, with an in-line left arm and club.

Low Point occurs sooner [further back] (old low point was green line) and very slightly LOWER.

Also, LOW POINT occurs PRECISELY UNDER the left shoulder (red dot), of course.

 

[tongzilla]

Brian, for there to be no acc #2 at impact as above, does that mean the left wrist is uncocked (not level) since we still have the acc #3 angle when the left wrist is level?

 

[Brian Manzella]

AND HERE IS THE MIND BLOWER!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, for there to be no acc #2 at impact as above, does that mean the left wrist is uncocked (not level) since we still have the acc #3 angle when the left wrist is level?

But if you have a #3 you have differnt roll variables.

Just say, no #3 angle or roll.

 

[Vaako]

Is this an exhibit of freecing the left shoulder, so the only rotation center is around spine - and low point ends up under the only rotation point?

Like in the shoulder-turn only putting.


V.

 

[golfbulldog]

Brian, i can tell that this is significant thought and much effort on your part...but can you add a few words please... Sunday night in UK...bad cold and tired...cranium exploded long ago!!

What is "PLA"?

The alignments that move low point backwards (LP3/4) seem to have right shoulder coming through very level...ie. not much right shoulder down plane...

Is that what you are saying?

Thanks

 

[mandrin]

For years I thought that Low Point was ALWAYS UNDER the Left Shoulder unless there was throwaway. I was wrong and Mandrin is the one that pointed it out and Tom Bartlett helped me understand it. When I am wrong I am the quickest teacher in golf to admit it and change my approach.

Thanks, BM

 

[golfbulldog]

Mandrin... please can you add a few words please...

and a liberal dash of smilies of course

What are the practical consequences of these alignments?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I am packing for Louisville as we speak...

I'll try to post later but, PLA is "Primary Lever Assembly."

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin... please can you add a few words please...

and a liberal dash of smilies of course

What are the practical consequences of these alignments?

golfbulldog,

For ‘some’ low point is an absolute, always below the lead shoulder joint. Quite wrong. Low point in a swing is that of the 3D trajectory of the clubhead and mainly determined by the motion of central pivot and 3 segments: lead shoulder, lead arm and golf club. However it is educational to show possible but not quite realistic trajectories where there are no low points - just to keep alert not being too sure and absolute about it all.

Especially for golfers creating high clubhead velocity, impact alignment is of paramount importance as it is really surprising that very small variations in club head trajectory or club face orientation constitutes the difference between success and failure. Golf pros such as Brian know from patient teaching and experimenting what it takes to guide students to success, that is not my forte.

However in general I would suggest focusing on getting the hands first to the ball and relying as much as possible on centrifugal force for both the release and the squaring the club face - hence trying to become as much as possible a ‘GOLFING MACHINE’.

 

[pieman]

in a nutshell would anyone now advocate a ball position that would be 'slightly' more back than previously accepted as a general rule?

 

[golfbulldog]

golfbulldog,

For ‘some’ low point is an absolute, always below the lead shoulder joint. Quite wrong. Low point in a swing is that of the 3D trajectory of the clubhead and mainly determined by the motion of central pivot and 3 segments: lead shoulder, lead arm and golf club. However it is educational to show possible but not quite realistic trajectories where there are no low points - just to keep alert not being too sure and absolute about it all.

Especially for golfers creating high clubhead velocity, impact alignment is of paramount importance as it is really surprising that very small variations in club head trajectory or club face orientation constitutes the difference between success and failure. Golf pros such as Brian know from patient teaching and experimenting what it takes to guide students to success, that is not my forte.

However in general I would suggest focusing on getting the hands first to the ball and relying as much as possible on centrifugal force for both the release and the squaring the club face - hence trying to become as much as possible a ‘GOLFING MACHINE’.

I rememebr when you posted those pics before, Mandrin. Did not "get it" then ... but see what you mean now... very important .... and, as usual, smilies used eloquently... no cranium explosion!

Thanks

 

[Amen Corner]

Well, true. Low point can occur on different places but remember that there is a relationship between low point and plane line. If the new low point is as above, then you have changed the plane line to the right.

 

[birdie_man]

Brian maybe you could do an audio on these pictures???

(if you have time of course)

 

[golfbulldog]

Well, true. Low point can occur on different places but remember that there is a relationship between low point and plane line. If the new low point is as above, then you have changed the plane line to the right.

Interesting point...Brian said somthing in thread "What is low point" that he moves players low point most easily with plane line movement...or something like that.... but i don't believe that this is the only way... i think mandrin got something else going on in those fancy " trajectories" diagrams.... waiting for brian's words to help my brain.