One thing they always amazes me is how long Pro and Scratch golfers stay in their spine tilt towards the ball. The vast masses of us normal (hacks) golfers come out of ours wayyyyyyyy early. They seem to set this angle at address and stay there till their SWING pulls them out of it at follow-through. They rarely come out of that that angle. WE rarely stay in it. Are there any drills helping some of us stay in this angle. Ahem.....some of us are our 50's and more,not quite as supple as we once were,so take that into considering some of your drills.
The action that allows someone to "stay in their posture" (a phrase a do not like) is the shifting of their center-of-gravity toward the left heel.
Their is simply no way a golfer performing a late "fit in" move, or any other shift toward the ball of the left foot, can stay bent toward the target line.
They would fall down.
So, as always, the answer is fixing the root cause of NOT getting to the left heel. And they are many, but easily fixed.
Generally the thing that makes people come out of their spine angle is "anxiety of result" i.e wanting to see the outcome too early...Simply focus on keeping your vision on a blade of grass or something just behind the ball until your right shoulder collects the right side of your chin (which will be about when your right arm is horizontal) on the follow thro......
Totally amateurish analysis.
Per my comments above, the golfer would fall flat on their face.
Looking at it closer many players old or young stand up through the swing because it helps them try to square the clubface up before impact. They can't stay down or put lag pressure on the club because they are lagging the hosel into the ball not the sweetspot. Use some of Brians methods like twistaway and wedding ring up to square the clubface and then lag and pivot will come easier.
There could be other reasons you are specifically standing up but I have seen this to be a very common reason in many golfers.
Bolt, you have a future in this game.
The up and out thing has nothing to do with wanting to "look" at results. Sorry Putt.
You lose spin tilt, or lift, because you have to and you hit it better. Fix the path and the face and there will be no reason to lift. Have the right intent with the tool and again, no reason to lift.
Thank God for good smart friends.
The spine angle "line" drawn on screens is the most overrated mechanic out there. You will stay in your tilt better when you do other things, like cmartin said.
Ditto.
Do people also lift up because they have poor pivots? When I'm hitting it well, my body feels like it corkscrews into itself, and then into the ground. I bob and weave!
Right on Kevin. The pivot is movement in 3D space...it ain't just staying in the forward tilt and rotating.
Very important and correct post.
Part of doing this "like the pros" is doing the "Manzella-Rule," the 1-to-1 relationship—in degrees—of the opening of the shoulders and the tilting of the spine to the right...
Which....
Eventually...
Becomes....
Toward the target line....ala "the pros."
Strange then, the amount of players I've seen over the last 20 years who have immediately improved their striking once it was pointed out to them....
"The easiest thing to do in teaching is make a hacker a better hacker" —Ben Doyle
"Hit, Spit, and then Look Up" —the late Tommy Moore talking about what most golf pros teach.
For those people who stand up through impact; if they didn't they would hit it like 3 feet fat. Your brain wont' let that happen so it does what it needs to do to try and make u hit the ball where you want it to go.
In many cases, very true Jimmy.
If you are throwing the club away, you need room to miss the ball.
When Ben Doyle bent me WAY over—posture-wise—in 1987, I hit my first 600 balls 4 inches fat.
Really.
So I learned how to lag it more, and get my left shoulder further from the ball at impact.
A hacker would just stand up...
or quit.
improving their striking and eliminating the standup move or the opening of the face that is causing isn't the same thing putt.
And yet another smart man.
The reason you would hit it fat is because the right forearm and club shaft are NOT on the same plane at address...standing up at impact is to allow this to happen...at impact ALL good golfers have their right forearms in line with the club shaft and the right elbow close to the body.
What???
Gimma a break.
What about players that increase their tilt in the backswing...ala Lee Westwood?
Steeper shoulder turn will do this.
So will just some players' "natural" motion.
Hogan did this as well.
I have had problems with keeping my inclination constant in the past...definitely affects the takeaway...should I be looking for the root cause instead of just trying to keep my inclination constant???
Always.
Players who increase their tilt in the backswing are simply trying to get their head behind the ball.
No.
No.
and NO!
Does anyone think that it is possible to come out of your shot because of lack of strength in your glutes.???
Interestingly, the folks at TPI, who are all about fitness, as well as anyone familiar with 6° 3D, say you should take some fo the tilty OUT OF your hips to and through the ball.
...an article that inferred that holding spine angle through the shot is a strength issue.
More of a flexibilty and technique issue.
Check out these sequences and then you can see what I mean...
At impact his head has dropped/tilted to the ground and his back has moved up. Constant spine tilt, I don't know about that.
Wrong again.
Just about perfectly the same.
Only the head angle has changed.
His right elbow has moved to his right hip and now the right forearm is inline with the shaft!! ALL THE PROS DO THIS..
The hip has NOTHING to do with his right arm location.
Zero.
All goof players wind up at impact with a more bent—but not necessarily "on-plane"—right arm.
Why?
Because their right shoulders are lower and closer to the ball, and the HAVE TO BEND the arm. Also, the right arm is still bent just as a boxer's is, at impact.
...setting up with the right forearm inline with the shaft will eliminate the need to do ALL of the above.
Only in a fantasy-land, where Kool-Aid is the official national drink.
Nope, the glutes have nothing to do with the swing or coming out of it.
You must have a flat hind-end.
Trust me, give me a golfer with a bibble-butt and I'll make 'em a long hitter.
Ever watch baseball?
Do you mean at address like Harrington's above? Hanging down from the body and not inline with the club shaft.
Power comes from the fast rotation of the forearms through impact irrespective of the setup because ALL IMPACT POSITIONS are the same
His spine has definitely moved up because if you draw the line for the spine anatomically as it is suppose to be...at impact his spine will be curved and no way in the same position as at address
It may be anatomically different, but not less or more than address by any amount worth measuring.
this doesn't work for everyone
No doubt.
Why would that be when the impact position that ALL golfers are trying to achieve is as in the impact photo of Padriag Harrington?
It is a very good position.
You don't START at impact anymore that a baseball player, hockey player, or discuss thrower would.
Fat shots occur because 1.) there has been no transfer of weight thru the swing 2.) the player has not come up to avoid the club striking the ground before the ball 3.) he has not brought his right elbow closer to his hip...no wonder it takes so many years just to play this game better.
This list should get an award for being more sophomoric than a Peter Kostis analysis.
You need to do some searching through this site and lern a little-bit-more-than-a-little.
There are many Tour Pros who do not have the right forearm on the shaft angle at impact. Many.
Absolutely.
See David Toms.
27 million won, never had his forearm on plane at impact once.
I agree that the spine angle changes a lot with top players, but you are out of your mind if you think ALL top players have their forearm in line with the shaft at impact. C'mon. For every one that does I'll name one that doesn't.
And I'll add two.
Kevin, name a few and I'll go check them out
Ernie Els, David Toms, Stewart Cink, Trevor Immelman, Tom Watson. A lot do, but it is not an absolute. Immelman and Els, especially with irons, have the right arm straight and more vertical than the shaft. The others, especially with the driver, stand the shaft up and have their right forearm parallel to the ground.
You can add Retief and Hunter Mahan to that list as well.
SAM SNEAD!!!
PEARLVISION!!
Acuvue!
Here are the facts:
Some pros, and some good players have their right forearms on the same plane as the shaft plane, or sweetspot plane, at impact, and some don't.
There is close, and there is NOT on it, and there is on it.
What??? Vijay's isnt even close. Where all all the others I mentioned? Go on youtube swingvisions. Thats Toms with a driver post impact. Check out his iron swing on youtube. They absolutely do not ALL do it.
Like I said.
Is this some sort of joke? Are you telling me Stewart Cink's forearm is on the shaft angle? Are you serious?
Yup, Cink;s is pretty far off.
I'm not voicing an opinion on whether or not most pros have club on a certain plane at impact (since I haven't looked that closely), but I do know that by moving a camera to film from different perspectives you could make someone look like they were on -- or were not on -- a specific plane at impact.
No doubt.
But just as some that are OFF would look on without parallax, just as many that looked on would be proven to be off.
Trust me, "pro," a day on a 6° 3D machine would change you mind fast.
Alot of those pictures are making my point for me. Els' forearm isnt even close to the shaft angle. Geez.
That's why I am spending, at last count, 3 hours on this post.
You mean you REALLY cannot see it! WOW
You are either can't see straight, or have Kool-Aid in your eyes.
Or both.
I agree with Kevin. Some of the guys in the pics you posted aren't even CLOSE to having the right forearm on plane with the shaft.
An on plane right forearm is typically only for online mechanics anyway. The minute you start talking different ball flights, you'll see different right forearm alignments.
Not even that important for "starightaway" ball flight.
See "D-Plane" and "There is no such thing as a heavy hit."
I will bow out of this discussion now because it seems your beliefs are clouding your judgment
You have to be kidding.
You have come to the wrong place to try to filibuster with incorrect assumptions.
Brian Manzella=America's Golf Instruction Truth Detector.
I have no idea what this is addressing; the fact remains people stand up to avoid hitting it fat and the "fat hit" they avoid can be for all kinds of reasons and not just the ones you state. I could go out and hit a fat shot with my right forearm perfectly on the "shaft plane" for you; it's irreverent.
Exactly.
Kevin, isn't Ernie's right forearm basically in-line with the shaft in the above pic?
It is.
It wasn't at address.
There are many pics of Ernie with it someplace else.
It DOES NOT MATTER A LICK!!!!
Can anyone provide an explanation for why the right forearm needs to be on the same plane as the shaft? Exactly what does this accomplish? Why is it optimal? What type of player would exhibit this quality? I need some hard evidence here. Explain why an "on-plane" right forearm makes you hit the ball better. I'm just curious.
The main thing was for support.
That was blown up with the "heavy hit.
Some folks think you can "trace" the plane line with their right forearm.
I'd bet 'em a $100 a man they couldn't do it on 6° 3D on a practice swing.
Strike two.
Will it make you hit the ball better?
Maybe.
It made David Toms play WORSE.
Which got him to uter the now famous line after losing money to a guy who sells Allstate now:
"But it looks better on video, though, huh?
"
I agree with Kevin..it looks to me like the right forearm is above the shaft and there is some shaft droop in that picture. Maybe some are seeing the shaft droop and not looking at the grip end?? I dunno
It doesn't mater.
Thank you.
If you set up in a normal, orthodox way, your right forearm at address will be higher than the shaft plane.
And if you swing in a normal, orthodox way, that right forearm and right elbow WILL be lower at impact.
Correct.
Like I said way, way, above.
Begolfpro, for the record, I have nothing against the right forearm on the shaft angle at impact. Plenty of top players do it. Faldo's a great example and Ive been a huge fan of his action. The only thing im saying is that you cant come around these parts and make a statement that ALL top players do it. They CLEARLY dont. The picture of Els, Singh, and Cink absolutely, positively show their forearm not exactly in line with the shaft, making it irrelevant to good ballstriking. Irrelevant.
Very good points.
as i said, this is the wrong forum for some "magical right forearm" stuff.
hope this thread gets buried before the "show" is over.
I am burying the idea right NOW!
And loving it.
I think Jim is right on the money.Most people stand up to avoid hitting fat usually because they are casting it from the top and flipping it at impact.
Another reason is that they have set up too bent over to start off with and need to stand up.
Look at all the guys with huge lag and trigger delay.Sergio,Tiger,Hogan.They all end up more bent over at impact than at address,otherwise they would miss the ball completely.
Now these guys could setup more bent over to avoid the "drop",however setting up more bent over would mean lower hands and not everyone is suited to low hand setup ala Mac O'Grady.
Good points.
For what it's worth,I used to stand up big time on the downswing and I was casting it also.I also set up very upright so being too bent over was definitely not the problem!
I have fixed the cast although I'm no Sergio yet and the standing up thru impact has magically dissapeared without having to work on maintaining the spine angle specifically.
Now serious casting may not be your problem but I presume a circle delivery path would also cause some lifting especially if you set up fairly bent over.
It depends.
I know for a fact that Toms' forearm isnt in line because he has a TSP downswing, so the shaft is much more upright than an elbow plane impact, and to accommodate that, his elbow is lower.
the "magic right forearm" stuff is overratted, because like i've said before, a true TSP downswing, really isnt possible with the right forearm on plane
It is possible with a funny grip.
And, or, the right amount of arm release.
From my experience, people who end up with a "perfectly" in line shaft with the right forearm TEND to use the elbow plane on the downswing.
Yes.
There's a good story somewhere on this site or maybe it was an audio that Brian did where he explained how he almost ruined David's swing by trying to get him to "look" like what he thought was optimal; ie getting the right forearm in line at impact.
Now long story short, David/Brian were playing some guys who they could have given 5 shots too and i believe they lost and David played horrible. Even at one point hitting a bad shot and said something to brian like "bet it looked good on video." That was when he went back to letting him be more above the shaft plane at impact.
Good memory.
Before you go making statements about some "magical right forearm stuff" been on the wrong forum I would suggest you become a little more informed before open you mouth.
Watch Brian's "Never Slice Again" video from time positions 53:58 to 54:11 and then you go and tell Brian to stop teaching this "magical right forearm" stuff to stop golfers slicing the golf ball
I never said it wouldn't help certain folks to TRY to do it.
Like slicers.
I just said you have poor vision, and generally need a lot of smartening up.
I am trying.
I should have said ALL Pro golfers are TRYING to get into the right forearm inline with the clubshaft at impact position.
No.
Wrong.
A guess, at best.
ALL golfers are not trying to get the right forearm in line with the shaft at impact. No way, not a chance.
But it absolutely MIGHT help some people.
Whew!
Good job.
I can pick 'em, huh?
i really dont see wat your trying to achieve here. some tour pros have their forearm inline, some dont. big deal
you will have limited success trying to make EVERYBODY have their forearm onplane. because not everybody will make a elbow plane downswing. usually people who swing left well, a la DT and Cink and Els when hes playing well, wont usually have it inline. DT is slightly below and i've seen brian demonstrate a TSP downswing where the shaft (or maybe sweetspot plane) is on or near the TSP, but the forearm is below it. most i have seen have the forearm slightly above that plane. big deal.
ball doesnt know, or care, where your forearm gets
The ball doesn't care, becuase the D PLANE doesn't care!!!
you could say that about just about anything, no?
That's the point.
We teach what MATTERS!
And that's why we are the best at what we do, in my opinion.
