A Little Lesson in Lesson Giving by Brian Manzella

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Thanks for the further explanation, Ringer.

Do you think that arm rotation is the primary influence on a golfer's path and plane then? Rather than, say, glueing the arms to your sides and rotating the core?
 
Thanks for the further explanation, Ringer.

Do you think that arm rotation is the primary influence on a golfer's path and plane then? Rather than, say, glueing the arms to your sides and rotating the core?

No. There is no "one" influence or even a primary. Setup, grip, arm rotation, tilt, and hand path. They all play a fairly equal part. However, there are tendencies. Grip and arm rotation are the two biggest problems that I see.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Nuts and Bolts...

Now, remember, I said I changed his poorly constructed strong grip to a professional style, very slightly stronger than neutral grip.

I have nothing against strong grips, per se, but if a golfer has a good basic swing, and a severely closed-to-the-path clubface, I will try a grip where I keep the grip under the heel pad, but have the clubface more matching the back of the left hand.

This doesn't work all the time for a particular golfer, but more often than not, it INSTANTLY presents the ball with a less closed-to-the-path clubface.

In this case, it did right away. His first few shots with the new grip were solid pushes, an average of 6-to-7° inside out with a basically matching face.

So, now we have a push, so I had him try to start the ball slightly left of an intermediate target, which he did almost right away, delivering a near zeroed out path, but with a 5-7° open face.

Why did the face not "move left with the path"?

Because out of the same stance, he had to actively rotate his hips and torso more, and this activity, and the change of sequence from a "hips facing the ball at impact" to a "hips past the ball and point 45°-ish to the left at impact" made the face more open to the path.

With his old grip, he cupped his wrist at the top, and retained the bend in the wrist through the ball. (he had forward lean, but a bent left wrist because the bend was UPWARD TWOARD HIS ARM, not forward toward the target.

So now, we had to teach him to square up the face.

Interestingly, most folks who have never seen me teach think I flatten everyone's wrist at the top, and have the golf apply twistaway and limit the left arm flying wedge rotation on the backswing to help the golf square up the club.

A weaker golfer, or a bigger slicer, MAYBE. But this ex-pro baseballer, who will be scratch if we continue to work, needed to learn to square the club up in a more "TOUR" manner. So we taught him to increase the distance between his grip logo and his watch face, and rotate the back of the left hand downward toward the ball, and continue this whole arm rotation to a "catch the raindrops" position just post follow-through.

It worked like a charm, moving the face more toward the path.

The last degree or two came from continuing that left arm rotation to a "hang the dry cleaning" left thumb under/butt of the club at the target at last parallel location, on the way to the finish.
 
Catch the raindrop... imagine on the follow through that you had to catch a raindrop in the palm of your left hand.
 
Brian - thanks for the great explanation.

One thing I noticed is that (first) you weakened his grip to get a basically square to the path clubface alignment (second) you zeroed his path, but in doing so, the clubface became open to the path and (finally) you re-squared the face to the new path. In other words, relative to his path, you opened his clubface 4 - 5*, then opened it a further 4-5*, and then closed it 4-5*

Can you say why you wouldn't want to skip step 1 in the first place, if zeroing out the path is likely to give a more open face (relative to the path)? If you'd left the strong grip in place, would that have given too much shaft lean at impact?

Also, at the point at which he was hitting straight pushes, can you say why you didn't just have him set up aligned further left to compensate? Someone asked basically this question on another thread. I said there that I felt in my own swing that if you already have a push motion from a square alignment, then it's too easy (since you're going with your basic movement pattern anyway) to exaggerate the push motion in response to feeling yourself aimed left.

Lastly, original path was 11* right. Fixing the grip brought path back 4-5* straight away. Is that basically the effect of arm rotation that Ringer was talking about?

Thanks again. Great thread.
 
Brian Manzella A Little Lesson in Lesson Giving by Brian Manzella

Wow, Thanks for your explantion and all the details Brian!

From my viewpoint that was the most understandable and informative golf lesson explanation I have ever read and I am pretty sure you will not find this kind of information anywhere else. This kind of information encourages more learning and research on the part of the instructor and I appreciate it.

Matt
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Brian - thanks for the great explanation.

One thing I noticed is that (first) you weakened his grip to get a basically square to the path clubface alignment (second) you zeroed his path, but in doing so, the clubface became open to the path and (finally) you re-squared the face to the new path. In other words, relative to his path, you opened his clubface 4 - 5*, then opened it a further 4-5*, and then closed it 4-5*

Can you say why you wouldn't want to skip step 1 in the first place, if zeroing out the path is likely to give a more open face (relative to the path)? If you'd left the strong grip in place, would that have given too much shaft lean at impact?

Also, at the point at which he was hitting straight pushes, can you say why you didn't just have him set up aligned further left to compensate? Someone asked basically this question on another thread. I said there that I felt in my own swing that if you already have a push motion from a square alignment, then it's too easy (since you're going with your basic movement pattern anyway) to exaggerate the push motion in response to feeling yourself aimed left.

Lastly, original path was 11* right. Fixing the grip brought path back 4-5* straight away. Is that basically the effect of arm rotation that Ringer was talking about?

Thanks again. Great thread.

To the first question, he wasnt squaring the club up the proper way so when he improved the grip he couldnt cup it and bend the wrist to square it up so it was left open. If he fixed the path first on a strong grip shoveler, it wouldve gone left off the planet. So fixing those strong push/leakers is much easier in the chronology that Brian did. It would give the student incentive to learn to turn the club down properly. Its harder to convince a student to turn it down/ downarch if the ball is already going left.
 
Wow, Thanks for your explantion and all the details Brian!

From my viewpoint that was the most understandable and informative golf lesson explanation I have ever read and I am pretty sure you will not find this kind of information anywhere else. This kind of information encourages more learning and research on the part of the instructor and I appreciate it.

Matt

Great instructors do this 8 times a day. They know cause and effect and get to the root causes.

They can get inside the head of a player and know what he's feeling and express what he wants them to do in terms of both feels and actuality.

I would not express this a "learning and research".

It's an "eye" that is self-developed. It's not in a book.

All IMO.
 
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To the first question, he wasnt squaring the club up the proper way so when he improved the grip he couldnt cup it and bend the wrist to square it up so it was left open. If he fixed the path first on a strong grip shoveler, it wouldve gone left off the planet. So fixing those strong push/leakers is much easier in the chronology that Brian did. It would give the student incentive to learn to turn the club down properly. Its harder to convince a student to turn it down/ downarch if the ball is already going left.

Thanks Kevin - is the bit that I bolded how strong-gripping tour pros release the club then? In this, I'm not trying to argue that it would be better to grip strong and cup/bend the wrist rather than change the grip and learn to turn it down. Just trying to understand the options.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Thanks Kevin - is the bit that I bolded how strong-gripping tour pros release the club then? In this, I'm not trying to argue that it would be better to grip strong and cup/bend the wrist rather than change the grip and learn to turn it down. Just trying to understand the options.

No, Tour players dont release the club like this with a strong grip, makes the club closed. Faders tend to stretch their arms alot in the follow thru and keep up with the shaft thru rotation or right hand pressure points. Drawers tend to have neutral right hands and let the left wrist bend immediately after impact but dont roll into a swivel. Everything else is normal.
 
Wow, Thanks for your explantion and all the details Brian!

From my viewpoint that was the most understandable and informative golf lesson explanation I have ever read and I am pretty sure you will not find this kind of information anywhere else. This kind of information encourages more learning and research on the part of the instructor and I appreciate it.

Matt

+1

One of my favorite threads to date.
And it was so simple to read.
 
No, Tour players dont release the club like this with a strong grip, makes the club closed. Faders tend to stretch their arms alot in the follow thru and keep up with the shaft thru rotation or right hand pressure points. Drawers tend to have neutral right hands and let the left wrist bend immediately after impact but dont roll into a swivel. Everything else is normal.

Thanks again, Kevin. Lots to take away and think about now!
 
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