A simple question or two

[jeffy]

Some players retain more lag deep into the downswing and have very solid looking impacts:

Others lose the angle early and have flippy looking impacts:

Why? What are they doing differently? (Forgive me if the answers are buried somewhere in the 138 page thread, I just can't make myself go through it all).

Sorry, but I don't understand how just lining up the impact differently accounts for it, as I think Brian is saying here:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/29646505?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen="" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>Charlie Brown and the Golf Swing from Brian Manzella on Vimeo.


Also, don't presume that I think "putting force across the shaft" is responsible. I don't. I never bought into that TGM stuff.

 

[Kamloops]

One thing that is noticeable is that the people with a lot of lag are hitting with a strong grip and squaring up more with the "edge" of the left hand. The players with less lag are squaring up with the back of the left hand. I think Brian covered this really well in one of his short videos. It might have been the one about whether it was OK to use a strong grip.

 

[faux_maestro]

Does it really matter what it "looks like"? Isn't it really about what the club is doing at impact and if you can repeat it?

 

[jeffy]

One thing that is noticeable is that the people with a lot of lag are hitting with a strong grip and squaring up more with the "edge" of the left hand. The players with less lag are squaring up with the back of the left hand. I think Brian covered this really well in one of his short videos. It might have been the one about whether it was OK to use a strong grip.

I assume it is "OK" to use a strong grip since 60% of tour players use a "standard" strong grip (like Snead), 20% use a very strong "Harley" grip (like Kuchar) and 10% have at least one hand in a strong position (like Nicklaus). That's 90%.

I don't think it is just the grip.

 

[jeffy]

Does it really matter what it "looks like"? Isn't it really about what the club is doing at impact and if you can repeat it?

In other words you don't know.

 

[faux_maestro]

In other words you don't know.

In other words I'm going to worry about what is really important, the information the club transmits to the ball, not what it looks like in pictures. Which may or may not be misleading for a variety of reasons.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Jeffy, All three guys in the lower pictures have their left arm no where near vertical at last parallel. The three guys in the upper pictures clearly have there left arms almost totally vertical. I took another look at your swing and you seem to have a pretty vertical left arm at last parallel. So you tell us. How do you do it?

 

[JTillery]

I hear ya Jeffy, there's a lot going on. Compensations put on top of each other. I notice a lot of guys that have the lean have shallow plane angles, and/or centered or back pivots. Usually other way around for "flippier" looking ones. Im assuming the gist is that even the leaners have "normal" force at impact and dont have the feel of pulling their hands down or trying to hold anything.

 

[footwedge]

Jeffy, All three guys in the lower pictures have their left arm no where near vertical at last parallel. The three guys in the upper pictures clearly have there left arms almost totally vertical. I took another look at your swing and you seem to have a pretty vertical left arm at last parallel. So you tell us. How do you do it?

This.

 

[footwedge]

This also: Some Coupling Point Path Answers on Vimeo

 

[faux_maestro]

I hear ya Jeffy, there's a lot going on. Compensations put on top of each other. I notice a lot of guys that have the lean have shallow plane angles, and/or centered or back pivots. Usually other way around for "flippier" looking ones. Im assuming the gist is that even the leaners have "normal" force at impact and dont have the feel of pulling their hands down or trying to hold anything.

THIS

 

[TeeAce]

Look at the right elbow position between those players. Those who got i close to the body got more lag "around them" Not only the wrists. Those players are also able to continue rotating through the impact and their shoulders are more open at impact. That makes the handle being ahead of the ball at impact from face on view.

 

[GeoffDickson]

20% use a very strong "Harley" grip (like Kuchar)
I don't think it is just the grip.

What is the harley grip?

 

[Lifter]

What is the harley grip?

I think "Harley" grip just means very very very strong.

 

[Kevin Shields]

It could also be called the Lifter grip

I just think the harder the release the later you prepare to do it. If a divot didnt stop the shaft you'd see the shaft go normal perhaps even quicker then some of the above photos.

I was lucky enough to play with 2 of those guys. I know some like that look but while they were both very clean strikers of the ball, frankly awesome, they both hit it very low and right to left and took enormous divots......for what its worth.

But all 6 are out there and Im typing on a computer so id take em all.

 

[Kamloops]

I think there will be a tendency to have more lag halfway down with a strong grip than a weak one mainly because there has to be more tumble to square the face when you employ a weak or neutral grip.

Assuming that for purposes of the discussion a mid sole impact would be worth looking at, I got in front of a mirror and tried both grips. I looked at impact fix with a midsole contact using a strong grip and then using a weak grip. The resultant hand positions were distinctly different. The only way to have a square face and mid sole contact with a strong grip is to lead with more of the "edge" of the hand and have the hands forward. Otherwise you would be putting the "toe in the box" to use Brian's phraseology.

Conversely, with a Manzella neutral grip to have midsole contact and a square face at impact the hands will not be as far forward and will be more up the left arm.

I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with a strong grip. In fact that was the point of Brian's video.

 

[golfdad]

Couple observations/conjectures...

1. In retrospect, through watching Mike Jacobs' video (which confused me a lot in the beginning) and subsequent reactions from people, I have come to realize and appreciate that J's video is more suited for those who are draggers AND have issues squaring the club through impact. In other words, it will be more beneficial to those who cannot effectively release the club because they are not capable of releasing the club over in the last millisecond IF they hold onto the wrist angle for "too long or too far". J recommended to start releasing early (like casting), which is at odds with what I think is appropriate for my kids, but then, my kids do not have the problem of holding on too long and too far. In my mind, J's video is a specific prescription for a subset of golfers with a particular problem. If one is a so called dragger and has no problem releasing the club properly as evidenced by a good ball flight, then the moves suggested in the video may not apply.

2. Jeffy's pic comparisons are telling, something I have come to accept intuitively, meaning, good players release differently. If we have to put them into 2 groups, namely, regular release vs delayed release, so be it. Perhaps for some indeed the hand low point is in front of the right thigh; for others, later into the impact zone. My speculation is that for regular folks with regular timing capabilities and physicality, it is conceivable that a prolonged dragging coupled with a super fast release is MORE DIFFICULT to achieve than a release that is timed earlier. In other words, IF I were a golf teacher and have a student who drags too far and cannot square the club, I will suggest the student to back off from the extreme hold and try to release earlier. Bottom line is that everything is relative and the source of feedback of all effort is the ball flight.

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy, All three guys in the lower pictures have their left arm no where near vertical at last parallel. The three guys in the upper pictures clearly have there left arms almost totally vertical. I took another look at your swing and you seem to have a pretty vertical left arm at last parallel. So you tell us. How do you do it?

Beats me. That's why I asked.

 

[jeffy]

This.

Something's missing.

 

[jeffy]

I think there will be a tendency to have more lag halfway down with a strong grip than a weak one mainly because there has to be more tumble to square the face when you employ a weak or neutral grip.

Assuming that for purposes of the discussion a mid sole impact would be worth looking at, I got in front of a mirror and tried both grips. I looked at impact fix with a midsole contact using a strong grip and then using a weak grip. The resultant hand positions were distinctly different. The only way to have a square face and mid sole contact with a strong grip is to lead with more of the "edge" of the hand and have the hands forward. Otherwise you would be putting the "toe in the box" to use Brian's phraseology.

Conversely, with a Manzella neutral grip to have midsole contact and a square face at impact the hands will not be as far forward and will be more up the left arm.

I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with a strong grip. In fact that was the point of Brian's video.

I agree, the guys with strong grips are less likely to have a flippy looking impact: kind of dangerous to be flippy with a real strong grip.