A simple question or two

[jeffy]

1. In retrospect, through watching Mike Jacobs' video (which confused me a lot in the beginning) and subsequent reactions from people, I have come to realize and appreciate that J's video is more suited for those who are draggers AND have issues squaring the club through impact. In other words, it will be more beneficial to those who cannot effectively release the club because they are not capable of releasing the club over in the last millisecond IF they hold onto the wrist angle for "too long or too far". J recommended to start releasing early (like casting), which is at odds with what I think is appropriate for my kids, but then, my kids do not have the problem of holding on too long and too far. In my mind, J's video is a specific prescription for a subset of golfers with a particular problem. If one is a so called dragger and has no problem releasing the club properly as evidenced by a good ball flight, then the moves suggested in the video may not apply.

2. Jeffy's pic comparisons are telling, something I have come to accept intuitively, meaning, good players release differently. If we have to put them into 2 groups, namely, regular release vs delayed release, so be it. Perhaps for some indeed the hand low point is in front of the right thigh; for others, later into the impact zone. My speculation is that for regular folks with regular timing capabilities and physicality, it is conceivable that a prolonged dragging coupled with a super fast release is MORE DIFFICULT to achieve than a release that is timed earlier. In other words, IF I were a golf teacher and have a student who drags too far and cannot square the club, I will suggest the student to back off from the extreme hold and try to release earlier. Bottom line is that everything is relative and the source of feedback of all effort is the ball flight.

Pretty much agree with everything.

 

[jeffy]

Look at the right elbow position between those players. Those who got i close to the body got more lag "around them" Not only the wrists. Those players are also able to continue rotating through the impact and their shoulders are more open at impact. That makes the handle being ahead of the ball at impact from face on view.

How is this right elbow position achieved?

 

[JEREMY5577]

Beats me. That's why I asked.

How can that beat you? Your swing looks very good. You seem to be hitting all the key positions. How are you doing it? And if you don't know and can do it anyway than why do you care? What are your thoughts on the right elbow being close to the body on the ds? I know when I deliberately try to tuck it in I tense up and loose the flow to my swing.

 

[jeffy]

How can that beat you? Your swing looks very good. You seem to be hitting all the key positions. How are you doing it? And if you don't know and can do it anyway than why do you care? What are your thoughts on the right elbow being close to the body on the ds? I know when I deliberately try to tuck it in I tense up and loose the flow to my swing.

Most of the work I've done in the past year is to lenghten my swing. I've also worked a fair amount on increasing the mobility in my spine, shoulders and scapula. I am still releasing pretty early and flipping. Can't get my right elbow in front of the right hip but would like to.

 

[Frans@France]

Yes please show some more images from non calibrated camera's and then try in 2d to measure those angles that can only be measured using the correct 3d info ...please....

 

[JEREMY5577]

Most of the work I've done in the past year is to lenghten my swing. I've also worked a fair amount on increasing the mobility in my spine, shoulders and scapula. I am still releasing pretty early and flipping. Can't get my right elbow in front of the right hip but would like to.

I would like to as well, when you look at Sean Ohair his forarms look like there glued together at last parallel. No idea how that is possible. Also Ross Fisher hits it pretty far right up there with the big boys when he wants to. Maybe the three are just holding back in an effort to be more accurate.

 

[footwedge]

Something's missing.

That's the thing, what your looking for you can't see. The results are visible but the cause is not. You can work on the results and try and get that look.

 

[jeffy]

That's the thing, what your looking for you can't see. The results are visible but the cause is not. You can work on the results and try and get that look.

Well, if I could see how to do it, I wouldn't be asking how to do it. I assume someone around here knows the "cause" and how to do it. Maybe not.

 

[footwedge]

Well, if I could see how to do it, I wouldn't be asking how to do it. I assume someone around here knows the "cause" and how to do it. Maybe not.

No one here knows why YOU can't get that look. They can only say you need to do this or that, or you don't do this or that, which to you is obvious, but yet you can't do it to your satisfaction.

You have probably heard it all and won't hear or see anything differently, you watched Brian's video's on it but said you don't see how that matters and isn't the answer your looking for. So even if someone tells you the "cause" would you recognize it as the "cause"? or find a way to reject it because you don't believe it.

 

[TeeAce]

How is this right elbow position achieved?

First of all think Your arms as a triangle and draw the line from elbow to the other. Normally at setup that line points about to the target. Usually that line stays same when You reach the top of Your bsw, but Your upper body has turned 90 degrees. Then at transition You start to rotate that triangle open as much as possible through the whole dsw when the hands are dropping down at the same time. it shows that right elbow drops under the left (right handed) and that imaginary line starts to point more away from the target. So at the transition it's pointing 90 degrees across the target line and after transition it points even more when right elbow comes closer to the body and down.

The difficult part from here is to believe You can still make contact with the ball if keeping that rotation on. That's why it's so hard to learn, because our instincts says You have to deliver the face to the ball! Many has said that their first shots like that felt they missed the ball and then something happened and the ball flew further than ever. It requires lot of flexibility also, but the biggest fight is against Our mind. We have been told to keep Our eye on the ball and steady head, and all that kills the dynamic side of the swing. Look at pictures of Duval from hi's great years. His face was pointing to the target at impact, because he rotated so much. Maybe he started to take lessons after that

 

[footwedge]

First of all think Your arms as a triangle and draw the line from elbow to the other. Normally at setup that line points about to the target. Usually that line stays same when You reach the top of Your bsw, but Your upper body has turned 90 degrees. Then at transition You start to rotate that triangle open as much as possible through the whole dsw when the hands are dropping down at the same time. it shows that right elbow drops under the left (right handed) and that imaginary line starts to point more away from the target. So at the transition it's pointing 90 degrees across the target line and after transition it points even more when right elbow comes closer to the body and down.

The difficult part from here is to believe You can still make contact with the ball if keeping that rotation on. That's why it's so hard to learn, because our instincts says You have to deliver the face to the ball! Many has said that their first shots like that felt they missed the ball and then something happened and the ball flew further than ever. It requires lot of flexibility also, but the biggest fight is against Our mind. We have been told to keep Our eye on the ball and steady head, and all that kills the dynamic side of the swing. Look at pictures of Duval from hi's great years. His face was pointing to the target at impact, because he rotated so much. Maybe he started to take lessons after that

Not everyone does this and they still have lag.

 

[TeeAce]

Not everyone does this and they still have lag.

Sorry footwedge, but I couldn't get Your point. What they don't do?

And lag You can have many different ways.

 

[jeffy]

No one here knows why YOU can't get that look. They can only say you need to do this or that, or you don't do this or that, which to you is obvious, but yet you can't do it to your satisfaction.

You have probably heard it all and won't hear or see anything differently, you watched Brian's video's on it but said you don't see how that matters and isn't the answer your looking for. So even if someone tells you the "cause" would you recognize it as the "cause"? or find a way to reject it because you don't believe it.

Such negativity! Brian's videos are long on the "what" but very sparse on the "how". "Lining up impact"? What does that mean? He suggests that pulling the left shoulder up might have something to do with the hands forward impact but that says nothing about what happens during most of the downswing where there are big (20* plus) differences in lag. He talks a lot about what happens after impact, but that isn't news to me at all. I've been working on getting bend in my left wrist (as opposed to rolling) post impact for over a year.

I don't think these are unreasonable questions at all. Whatever the body does is driven by muscles, bones and joints. What muscles are involved and in what sequence do they fire? What amount of mobility is needed in which joints? If someone laid these elements out, it would be straight-forward to try them out, video the results and assess my ability to perform them. What is wrong with that approach?

 

[jeffy]

First of all think Your arms as a triangle and draw the line from elbow to the other. Normally at setup that line points about to the target. Usually that line stays same when You reach the top of Your bsw, but Your upper body has turned 90 degrees. Then at transition You start to rotate that triangle open as much as possible through the whole dsw when the hands are dropping down at the same time. it shows that right elbow drops under the left (right handed) and that imaginary line starts to point more away from the target. So at the transition it's pointing 90 degrees across the target line and after transition it points even more when right elbow comes closer to the body and down.

The difficult part from here is to believe You can still make contact with the ball if keeping that rotation on. That's why it's so hard to learn, because our instincts says You have to deliver the face to the ball! Many has said that their first shots like that felt they missed the ball and then something happened and the ball flew further than ever. It requires lot of flexibility also, but the biggest fight is against Our mind. We have been told to keep Our eye on the ball and steady head, and all that kills the dynamic side of the swing. Look at pictures of Duval from hi's great years. His face was pointing to the target at impact, because he rotated so much. Maybe he started to take lessons after that

Thanks. I can see that getting the right elbow to lead the downswing is important. Hogan practiced it all the time. Easier said than done. And I move all over the place, probably a little too much.

No question about Duval. Haney and Leadbetter had no idea how good his technique was, even though it looked "funny". What they did to his game was criminal.

 

[footwedge]

Such negativity! Brian's videos are long on the "what" but very sparse on the "how". "Lining up impact"? What does that mean? He suggests that pulling the left shoulder up might have something to do with the hands forward impact but that says nothing about what happens during most of the downswing where there are big (20* plus) differences in lag. He talks a lot about what happens after impact, but that isn't news to me at all. I've been working on getting bend in my left wrist (as opposed to rolling) post impact for over a year.

I don't think these are unreasonable questions at all. Whatever the body does is driven by muscles, bones and joints. What muscles are involved and in what sequence do they fire? What amount of mobility is needed in which joints? If someone laid these elements out, it would be straight-forward to try them out, video the results and assess my ability to perform them. What is wrong with that approach?

Not negative realistic. It's in the place that controls all those muscles, joints, bones and the firing sequences. The place that's controling everything you do. You put a program in place and it doesn't want to let it go, it likes to repeat the old program.

 

[jeffy]

Not negative realistic. It's in the place that controls all those muscles, joints, bones and the firing sequences. The place that's controling everything you do. You put a program in place and it doesn't want to let it go, it likes to repeat the old program.

I'll deal with that problem. Just get me the new program!

 

[footwedge]

I'll deal with that problem. Just get me the new program!

LOL. Jeffy if I could I would. I'm still trying to get rid of my old one, I could give you that one.

 

[footwedge]

I'll deal with that problem. Just get me the new program!

Your doing okay anyways, I'm sure you'll survive.

 

[BertramSterling]

First of all think Your arms as a triangle and draw the line from elbow to the other. Normally at setup that line points about to the target. Usually that line stays same when You reach the top of Your bsw, but Your upper body has turned 90 degrees. Then at transition You start to rotate that triangle open as much as possible through the whole dsw when the hands are dropping down at the same time. it shows that right elbow drops under the left (right handed) and that imaginary line starts to point more away from the target. So at the transition it's pointing 90 degrees across the target line and after transition it points even more when right elbow comes closer to the body and down.

The difficult part from here is to believe You can still make contact with the ball if keeping that rotation on. That's why it's so hard to learn, because our instincts says You have to deliver the face to the ball! Many has said that their first shots like that felt they missed the ball and then something happened and the ball flew further than ever. It requires lot of flexibility also, but the biggest fight is against Our mind. We have been told to keep Our eye on the ball and steady head, and all that kills the dynamic side of the swing. Look at pictures of Duval from hi's great years. His face was pointing to the target at impact, because he rotated so much. Maybe he started to take lessons after that

Theres a guy out there called Martin Ayers who promotes such a move. Kind of like a tennis serve, where you are rotating the body toward the target and the hands/arms unit away from the target..

 

[drewyallop]

Yes please show some more images from non calibrated camera's and then try in 2d to measure those angles that can only be measured using the correct 3d info ...please....

Agree. See "Line drawing is for dummies" on this forum.

I think Kevin said it all. The harder you release it the greater the "lag". Pros do it harder then everyone else. If you can't, then your downswing will not look like a Pro's.

Plus, see Brian's comment on Kinetics versus Kinematics. These "picture based" threads are useless in my view. But I could be wrong.

Drew