above address shaft plane angle at impact

[ej20]

I don't see where bcoak is a single shifter in the video he posted.Some people just shift back onto the elbow plane a bit later than others.

If anything hes swinging too far right and underplane coming into impact,thus his blocks.

 

[pecky987]

I don't see where bcoak is a single shifter in the video he posted.Some people just shift back onto the elbow plane a bit later than others.

If anything hes swinging too far right and underplane coming into impact,thus his blocks.

thats what i think. hes a natural TSP'er and hes getting below that plane.

however your previous comments on TSP for fades and elbow plane for draws is WAY off. lee trevino was an elbow planer and couldnt hit a draw. arnold palmer used the TSP and hit a vast majority of draws (not saying he couldnt hit a fade).

the ball doesnt know or care what the plane angle is. only how the plane angle effects the true path is the only thing that matters.

 

[ej20]

Pecky...I wouldn't say to Trevinos face lol...he would probably hit a dozen draws just to prove you wrong.I am sure he could use the TSP if he wanted to.

Palmer is another one who has a very late shift back to shallow.He looks TSP because most of the downswing is on the TSP but the club is shallowing all the time into impact.Players who truly come OTT never shallows and comes straight down all the way on the TST or even above in severe cases.Divots point severely left.

Players like Sergio shifts very early in the downswing so it's easy to see the double shift.Some are not so obvious.

 

[bcoak]

I don't see where bcoak is a single shifter in the video he posted.Some people just shift back onto the elbow plane a bit later than others.

If anything hes swinging too far right and underplane coming into impact,thus his blocks.

Interesting. Thansk to everyone. I drew a line for TSP and see what you mean about being underneath and too far right.

 

[bcoak]

Here is another swing where I hit a weak cut. It looks like I am on the TSP better here but lousy result.
17 | Down the Line | View Video | Wide Divots

 

[fronesis]

If you single shift and come STRAIGHT down the shoulder plane you are OTT plain and simple.

This definition isn't plain or simple for me. It's confusing. How is swinging straight down the TSP an OTT move?

Do others agree with this definition? Or can anyone clarify why it's correct?

 

[ej20]

fronesis...Have a look at Nicklaus in this video and tell me you do not see him shallowing the club late in downswing,particularly the longer clubs.

There are various types of double shifters back onto or close to the elbow plane.One that shifts early like Sergio.Most others shift a bit more gradually and others very late like Nicklaus.

The OTT'er will start down steep on the TSP and will never shallow at any point.

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[ej20]

Heres a straight down the TSP single shifter.


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[Jim Kobylinski]

The TSP or Elbow Plane is more a function of your backswing, than soley what you do in your downswing.

If that were true than everyone would be able to do it with todays too flat laid off swings.

You can only drop your plane so much.

turning shoulder to elbow = Fred Couples...doesn't get more steep to shallow than that

bcoak and Jack Nicklaus could never find their Elbow Planes with their backswings.
Don't make this thing so complicated.

Similar to my freddy couples example above but i'll add the following:

john daly
sam snead
byron nelson
pre accident hogan
Tiger Woods circa 2000-2002 i think

All had fairly high hands and clubheads that were on the TSP and still made it back to the eblow plane.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you single shift and come STRAIGHT down the shoulder plane you are OTT plain and simple.

Now you may be OTT but you aren't ABOVE PLANE which is what OTT is generally referring too. If that is true than anyone who takes it back the elbow plane, shifts to the TSP and comes down the TSP is OTT. Now they may be over their elbow plane backswing but they aren't above plane; just using a different one which is totally fine.

Good players who can work the ball well can alter the downswing plane at will.Coming down OTT(turned shoulder plane) is good for fades and deliberate slices.Elbow plane is good for draws and deliberate hooks.

It honestly doesn't matter; did you know that Scott Hoch played a draw most of the time D-plane is what matters.

Those who say Nicklaus uses the TSP exclusively has not seen the swings where he double shifts.

Never saw video of him doing that, would be most appreciative if you could find some for me to look at thanks!

I read an article by Mark O'meara where he said he can on purpose come OTT for a steeper attack on the ball when hitting out of deep rough.

This is actually a good technique but you again you are doing what i said in my first statement which is saying coming above plane (which is a true OTT) and coming down a different downswing plane (but on plane) is the same thing which it isn't.

 

[pecky987]

swinging "over" your backswing is not the same as swinging "over the top".

hogan swung over his bacswing as did nicklaus

 

[ej20]

Jim,take a look at the Nicklaus video I posted and watch his driver swing DTL.He shifts late onto the elbow plane,so much so I would say hes actually underplane coming into impact.

Am I the only one that can see this?

 

[ej20]

swinging "over" your backswing is not the same as swinging "over the top".

hogan swung over his bacswing as did nicklaus

Pecky,this is not what is being discussed.We are trying to determine whether the TSP is in fact OTT or dangerously bordering on it.

My opinion is that Nicklaus may have been closer to the TSP with the shorter clubs due to their upright nature but he looks to me to double shift with the longer clubs.He was a much better long iron player than with the shorter irons.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,take a look at the Nicklaus video I posted and watch his driver swing DTL.He shifts late onto the elbow plane,so much so I would say hes actually underplane coming into impact.

Am I the only one that can see this?

Im at work so i can't view it, will take a look later.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Pecky,this is not what is being discussed.We are trying to determine whether the TSP is in fact OTT or dangerously bordering on it.

My opinion is that Nicklaus may have been closer to the TSP with the shorter clubs due to their upright nature but he looks to me to double shift with the longer clubs.He was a much better long iron player than with the shorter irons.

TSP is no more dangerous to an OTT than being on the elbow plane is more dangerous to being underplane. There are +'s and -'s to both. However at least with an OTT you still generally hit it well and solid, it's just a pull but there are times the pull hook comes and it's fore left but that isn't any worse than the big push or the push hook.

Again, each has it's own problems.

 

[fronesis]

Jim,take a look at the Nicklaus video I posted and watch his driver swing DTL.He shifts late onto the elbow plane,so much so I would say hes actually underplane coming into impact.

Am I the only one that can see this?

Not trying to be contrarian, but no, I honestly can't see Nicklaus making a late elbow-plane shift, even with the driver. I see him shift to the TSP, come down the TSP. Now, he does swing left a lot, so there's a visual sense of him being somewhat "shallower" right past impact, but I see the downswing as being on the TSP, not the elbow plane.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I'd like to hear a lot more about this from others. It would also be helpful to find another example of someone who most golfers see as swinging on the TSP but who are really "late shifting" to the elbow plane, as ej20 argues.

 

[ej20]

TSP is no more dangerous to an OTT than being on the elbow plane is more dangerous to being underplane. There are +'s and -'s to both. However at least with an OTT you still generally hit it well and solid, it's just a pull but there are times the pull hook comes and it's fore left but that isn't any worse than the big push or the push hook.

Again, each has it's own problems.

I think the terms elbow plane and turned shoulder plane is a bit meaningless.Most good golfers downswing is a constant shift towards the shallow side.What looks to be on the TSP early on in the downswing can suddenly shift to the elbow plane.

Fronesis wanted another example other than Nicklaus so here is Tim Clarke.




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[ej20]

Not trying to be contrarian, but no, I honestly can't see Nicklaus making a late elbow-plane shift, even with the driver. I see him shift to the TSP, come down the TSP. Now, he does swing left a lot, so there's a visual sense of him being somewhat "shallower" right past impact, but I see the downswing as being on the TSP, not the elbow plane.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I'd like to hear a lot more about this from others. It would also be helpful to find another example of someone who most golfers see as swinging on the TSP but who are really "late shifting" to the elbow plane, as ej20 argues.

There is a still shot from his DTL driver swing that shows the clubshaft BELOW his right forearm.Try to freeze frame it.

Nicklaus has said he tries to keep his back facing the target for as long as possible on the downswing.He wanted to have his shirt buttons facing way right of the ball at impact.These are his intentions.It sounds like he swings right me,not left.At least his upper body is swinging right.

Like i said good players shallow on the downswing so putting terms like elbow plane and TSP is meaningless.If you don't shallow and come straight down the TSP then you are at best bordering on OTT and not many great ballstrikers do this.

 

[ej20]

Here is an example of coming straight down the TSP.....OTT....Mickelson here is deliberately hitting a pull or a pull slice by coming OTT.


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[pecky987]

i think you are mistaking a steeper plane angle with being above plane